Welcome to The Hand Lettering Forum!
This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.

Black Velvet On Gold?

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian

Post Reply
Tyler Tim
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:12 am

Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by Tyler Tim »

Ok I've always used cotton as a burnish medium. I've read several places to use velvet. So are we talking Royal or Crushed? I went to the fabric store and there is a big difference between the two as far as feel.
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:
Lee Littlewood
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:36 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by Lee Littlewood »

well, for "burnishing" gold - wiping it down to remove the excess, and then rubbing it gently to close overlaps and rub out wrinkles - a lady's powder puff seems to be wonderful. Surgical cotton was the old standard, but it is getting hard to find and seems to be no better than the powder puff. On a big job (a 20' statue) we made "oven mitts" of regular velvet and rubbed down the day's work, then sized for the next day. (Big gilding is boring and wind-dependent, but basically pretty easy. Most areas are relatively smooth, so one can lay from the book with good accuracy and speed. We found that 2 hours of sizing would produce about 6 hours of gilding the next day.)
Crushed velvet is a lovely background for a glass sign, but I'd be afraid of it for burnishing, and I'm not sure how it would work for "spinning".

from the web:
Velvet can be made from a variety of fibers, including silk, rayon, acetate and cotton. Each type of fiber produces a slightly different type of velvet fabric. Silk velvet is the most elegant and expensive type, with a soft drape and shimmering surface. Synthetic velvets made from rayon and acetate simulate the shimmer of silk velvet, but are generally heavier and do not drape as well. There are some velvet fabrics available that are made with a rayon pile on a silk backing. This combines the best of both worlds, with the drape of silk in a less expensive fabric. Cotton velvet, often referred to as velveteen, is the sturdiest and most durable type of velvet. The surface of cotton velvet has more of a soft sheen and less of the shimmer of silk or synthetic velvet.

So probably our mitts were made from velveteen.
PetePolishing.JPG
PetePolishing.JPG (59.34 KiB) Viewed 7980 times
where am i? Now, when i need me...
Tyler Tim
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:12 am

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by Tyler Tim »

Lee that was informative... Looks like a helluva job you were working on. But did not pin the point.

So Real Velvet... royal or crushed... velveteen or velor?

Thanks Tim
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:
vance galliher
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:38 pm
Location: springfield, or.
Contact:

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by vance galliher »

lee, tell the folks how many books of gold you and pete use to gild that statue atop the oregon state capitol....here's a site that tells the whole story http://www.oregonlink.com/goldenpioneer/index.html
vance
dimensional and glass art signs
http://www.vancegallihersigns.com
Ron Berlier
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:27 am

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by Ron Berlier »

Lee, wow, quite impressive work :!: How long did it take to do the job and how many books of gold were used?
Ron Berlier
Wherever I go, there I am.
DAVE SMITH
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:12 am
Location: ENGLAND

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by DAVE SMITH »

Lee . Fantastic workmanship you and Pete have achieved with this project. Good to see Pete again, say hi to him for me.
Dave
Kent Smith
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:41 pm
Location: Estes Park, CO
Contact:

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by Kent Smith »

For spinning and burnishing, I prefer real velvet, not velveteen. The better the quality of fabric, the longer it lasts and not leave little hairs all over, especially if there is a bit of bloom. I have found that cotton velveteen often has a "dust" it leaves on the surface, but it depends upon the brand.

Lee and Peter, nice project. I am glad they chose to have the restoration done properly.
BruceJackson
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:28 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by BruceJackson »

Interesting to see the time intervals between gilding..20 years, 26 years, 16 years

I wonder what other experiences we can share about exterior gilding. It would be very illuminating to add to our collective knowledge about the longevity of different methods and materials.

In my own case, Mostly, it seems to last very many years with very little change, except for a little mellowing of the color over the years. However, i have seen some of my exterior gilding fail surprisingly quickly. Some years ago, I did the four clock faces on a clock tower. I ended up using gold from two different sources, because I ran out of one brand after doing the first three clock faces. The carat and appearance was the same, so I didn't think anything of it.

It was all transfer gold and the second brand was very lightly pressed and almost fell off the transfer paper. I was tending to gild it during the later part of the size's tack window so that I would get a nice bright finish. The first batch was applied at standard whistling tack, but the second, being so lightly pressed, allowed my to apply much later onto a very low tack.

Some years later, the first batch of gilding was still holding up well, but the second batch was beginning to come off, revealing the colored size underneath. I'm sure now, the reason was that I simply left the size go too late. Not enough tack to hold the gold on for the long term. Unfortunately, access required scaffolding, so I couldn't repair my embarrassingly short-lived gilding on that one side.

On another job, I gilded the astragals and torus of some exterior columns. The guttering had failed on the corner of the structure, and it let all the rain wash down a corner column. I notice that after a couple of years, the gilding on this one column had failed and completely washed away.

The lesson I've learnt from this, is don't try to get the brightest possible finish by gilding very late into the tack window. This is good practice for interior work when you want a very high quality and bright gild, but for outside....give the gold a fighting chance to hold on if it gets washed.
Lee Littlewood
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:36 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by Lee Littlewood »

Bruce,

"Interesting to see the time intervals between gilding..20 years, 26 years, 16 years"

Yup, there was another factor at work here. When Roy Darby regilded @ 26 years, I think some of the gold was failing - I know he said that they washed it all and used Bondo on some surface pits and then primed the whole statue, probably with zinc chromate primer. Then a coat of 1Shot gold color, then the size.
The size was the classic fat oil size; raw linseed oil left out in a gallon bottle on the roof of the sign shop for 20 some years. I remember him breaking it down with (of course) Darby's Reducer and a piece of chain; patiently pulling out long strands of what looked like taffy. Then turning it back to a liquid, probably with Darby's and turpentine, I'm not sure. We were handed the same material, and it was a real pain to get to useable consistency. Then we did tests with different proportions of Rolco quick size to get a 24 hour size. And after sizing you had to clean your brushes with lacquer thinner & Darby's - mineral spirits wouldn't dissolve what was in the brush. All in all I'm glad we did it, because now I can use LeFranc size, have an easier time of it, and not think I'm missing something.
Anyhow, when we took the shop on a field trip and visited Roy on the scaffold, they were working over a 1Shot gold base, so I don't know how bad the leaf had gotten.

But I do know that in 2000, when we did it, the presenting complaint was not the gild, but some dark stuff on the top of the head that could be seen (from the ground with binoculars). They put up a mini-scaffold and I got to look at it, and my guess is that it was a mold growing on the size in the scratches that bird claws made. Plus a little bit of bird poop as fertilizer. But the scratches were distinct on the crown of the head and the tops of the shoulders, with a few down the chest like somebody scrabbling to stay on. And there was a definite black something in the scratches. Note that everywhere else the gold was just fine, nice and bright (remember that it rains a lot here in Oregon, so the vertical surfaces got a lot of rinsing and not much build-up of dust). Nobody had ever mentioned black gunk before (I'm sure Roy would have if he'd seen it), but as I walked around the building I talked to a maintenance man who was washing down the white marble. He said that there was a lot of black moldy stuff, and no he'd not seen it before, and no it wasn't on a regular clean up schedule. So I think that there had been a change in the microflora of the area - maybe permanent, maybe not - and there are a whole lot more spores floating around than in the past, and once they got to the raw linseed oil it was nutritious. So we put some mold killer chemical in our size, and if I had a helicopter I'd fly over and look down to see what is growing there now.
Statue6a.jpg
Statue6a.jpg (103.21 KiB) Viewed 7566 times
Head1.JPG
Head1.JPG (145.23 KiB) Viewed 7563 times

.......................................
So Bruce, when you say "a whistle tack" are you implying that you used quick size? On slow size it wants to go way beyond 'whistle', to where there is barely any drag at all. And somehow the leaf sticks brilliantly to this micro-adhesive, I don't know how. But I think that what makes it last better is not the degree of tack but the type of size - slow size never really dries, and can flex with changes in temperature, while quick size eventually becomes a hard film and can't adapt. And of course wind blown dust, or even dust being pushed by water drops, will wear away the gold in time. Or little dirty birdy feet, as the song says.
........................................

"Great green globs of greasy, grimy gopher guts,
Mutilated monkey meat.
Dirty little birdie feet.
Great green globs of greasy, grimy gopher guts,
And me without my spoon."

Happy Halloween,
lee
where am i? Now, when i need me...
BruceJackson
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:28 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by BruceJackson »

that's a really fascinating story Lee,

Who'd have thought!...I would never have imagined needing to be concerned about mircroflora or lichen on gilding...but it does make a lot of sense.

As for your observation about whistling tack and quick size....yes, normally, I gild on quick size mixed with enamel. The local one I use (Viponds) is about 1-1.5 hours. Depending on the needs of the job, I may use a slower mixture. I am well aware that a slow size takes gold well, even with barely a hint of tack left. The two times, i observed the gilding fail prematurely (really due to excessive water exposure), it was when I gilded very late. Maybe just pushing it a bit too far trying to get a really bright finish. The size itself was still intact, but the gold simply washed away. I can't remember now what mixture I used, but it was probably a mix of Viponds' gold size, yellow enamel and linseed oil.

Oh...I just realize, I'm kind of adding to this post going further off-topic....sorry....BTW, I burnish with soft cotton. Which velvet is better? I don't know.
joe cieslowski
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:15 pm
Location: east canaan ct
Contact:

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by joe cieslowski »

For "burnishing" the gold, I've always used a red sabol artist brush about 3/4" wide. It's stiffer than the powderpuff (I did try it) but the brush allows me to put a little more pressure on the gold for better adhesion to the size (I really don't know for sure that this is true but I sleep better). I finish with a wipe of wet cotton which makes any seams disappear.

I've always been told to use real velvet for spinning and "scratching" for the faux bevel look.

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Dan Seese
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Contact:

Re: Black Velvet On Gold?

Post by Dan Seese »

Really great post. I especially like to hear what others are doing successfully (and not so successfully).

Bruce, your description of the failed gild is interesing and helpful. There is always that "window" between drowning the gold and having it not stick. That's where a good slow size is preferable - or at least a mix of slow/fast - because that window stays open longer.

Lee, I found your info about this statue you and Pete gilded to be fascinating. The mitten being used by Pete (the velveteen rabbit) is a creative solution for large jobs. The first time I purused this thread I missed the link Vance provided which takes you to the story about the process of doing this statue. If anyone missed it, check it out: http://www.oregonlink.com/goldenpioneer/index.html

Not much to add regarding burnishing. I have a few different velvets I use which I just picked up randomly as scraps at a fabric store. No idea of the quality. I also use a velvet shoulder pad from an old dress which works nicely.

I don't ususally use cotton on a surface gild, though I will use it when cleaning gold off a dried water gild on glass. I've found that if I have holidays in a surface gild the cotton sticks to those areas. The velvet works pretty well. Also handy is a foam brush to clean up the lap lines. Amazing how quickly and efficiently this works. It's especially nice getting into nooks & crannies and I've found I can be pretty aggressive with it.
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

http://DanSeeseStudios.com
http://www.DanSeeseStudios.com/blog/
http://www.facebook.com/DanSeeseStudios
Post Reply