Paint, backing up and brushes...

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Trip Bauer
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:05 pm
Location: North Florida

Paint, backing up and brushes...

Post by Trip Bauer » Mon May 12, 2014 5:11 pm

Glass is ordered, design is in process, trying to get my ducks in a row before I start (piece is for my house). I've gone about 20 pages back on the forum so far and ran into a bit of confusion and had a couple of questions.

This will be reverse on glass, numbers and design for a door transom.

Initial information before I started reading here had me thinking I could dip into my One Shot collection for paint, and from what I've read, I can, for the colored areas. Looks to me now though that it won't work for the gilded areas as backing up and I'm going to order Gilders Gold Leaf Back Up, but wondered if there was an issue using the same brushes with that AND One Shot (yah, cleaning thoroughly of course).

Also, wondering what the recommendation for going over that and the colored areas would be, as the backside will be outside, though facing a screened porch. I keep seeing spar varnish mentioned, but this can't be the same as I used when running a marina, can it? I've used gallon upon gallon of Varathane, it was never clear/never stayed clear, and was designed for wood protection...

The last order was some brushes, soap, gold, etc. from Letterheadsignsupply.com, this order will need to go ground, so anything else you'd recommend I have on hand as I venture into this? I'd like to combine for shipping.

Lee Littlewood
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Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:36 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Paint, backing up and brushes...

Post by Lee Littlewood » Tue May 13, 2014 5:08 pm

STUFF YOU NEED:
I dunno - you got brushes, paint, gelatin, leaf, oil size - maybe surgical cotton? clear overcoat? mica powders? shell? shellac? diamonds on the soles of our shoes? There is always more, but my rule is to make an order for what I know I need, and then add one more item I'm curious about. I've built up an impressive collection of weird stuff that way.

On clear overcoat: the purpose of an overcoat is to protect the image from abrasion (think door signs and trucks) and to keep moisture from getting to the gold/gelatin layer. Gelatin is sweet stuff, but it can always redissolve in water and the gold will lift off the glass. (I know some experiments have been made with other materials looking for something that won't re-solve, but nuthing seems as clear as gelatin.) So the clear usually has to overlap the outer edges of the inscription, leading to the, "Where do you get those decals?" questions from onlookers.
But if your piece is away from abrasion and not likely to get wet then the problem is not extreme, and your biggest worry is sunlight degrading the clear (and your pigments in the inscription, of course). A good oil based spar varnish with UV shield is traditional (water based "varnish" might be fine, but I'd be nervous - has anyone out there done it?) . Clear vinyl (especially tedlar) is good for extreme conditions, but it can be a beast to apply over a big inscription.
where am i? Now, when i need me...

Trip Bauer
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:05 pm
Location: North Florida

Re: Paint, backing up and brushes...

Post by Trip Bauer » Tue May 13, 2014 6:22 pm

Thanks Lee, I've got quite a bit, been ordering a bit at a time. Brushes, gilding mop and size brush, array of One Shot, Bon Ami and Gilders soap, solvents (you name it, I've got it), gold, fake gold, aluminum leaf, kaolin, gilders tip, mahl stick, mask vinyl... one day I'll finish my box to put it all in.

I'm thinking the back-up paint and now some clear for sure and probably some size too.

Any issue using the same brushes for the back-up paint and One Shot? Are they compatible in that the same brushes can be used or should I have a separate set for those?

Any favorite clear? It won't see much if any wet weather, but I'm in Florida, so I'll need to clean off the bug residue (webs, mud daubers, fly speck etc. occasionally.

I've done a bunch of paint only reverse glass work, but it was all acrylic and backed by a board in frames, nothing quite like this.

BruceJackson
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Paint, backing up and brushes...

Post by BruceJackson » Tue May 13, 2014 8:55 pm

You can use the same brushes for gold size, back-up paint and one-shot. It's all oil-based paint and chemically compatible

The reason you'd use a special back-up paint (in Australia, it is "drop black") instead of one-shot is mainly that it dries to a tougher finish more quickly. If you didn't have any other option, you can actually use oil-based enamels like "one-shot" as a back-up, but because it stays softer and more flexible for many days, it tends to chip at the edges during cleaning up process, so it's not really suitable. I sometimes used quick drying gold size as a back-up if I want the job to appear gold on the back as well. Same caution...it's not as robust as "back-up black" so be careful during cleaning so the edge doesn't chip

Varathane. I don't know this product, but the name obviously tells us it is a polyurethane. They are not generally well suited to glass work as a clear. Too brittle, too yellow, will possibly peel in a few years or may turn frosty in appearance.

If you can't get a spar varnish, you can use gold size for a clear coat...It may not last quite as long, but it's still going to protect the work for many years

Trip Bauer
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:05 pm
Location: North Florida

Re: Paint, backing up and brushes...

Post by Trip Bauer » Fri May 30, 2014 12:35 pm

So for the first piece I decided to just go ahead and use a mask, figured it might be a little less disappointing :) Painted last night, have some questions...

I'm using Gilders Back Up Black (and other colors) and as they ship in screen ink consistency, I was wondering if it was possible to pre-thin a batch (I keep my 1Shot in 4oz PETE bottles) rather than thinning each time.

I was also wondering about preferred brushes, I have a few more on order, but the Hannukaine series seems to have quite a bit of snap, maybe a bit much for glass?

As I used a mask, I have a ridge, more of one than I thought I'd have. I'd read about using 0000 steel wool to knock it down, but every piece I've ever picked up was treated with a light oil. Now, I'm just starting and certainly no expert, but it seems to me that using this would deposit oil on the inner areas I'd like to then gild. Am I missing something, a step, a specific brand?

Lots of lessons learned after this first piece, figured out many, and figured out many more were just common sense, I did learn that I enjoyed the heck out of it and quickly remembered why I used to spend all those long nights with brush in hand.

Trip

Lee Littlewood
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:36 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Paint, backing up and brushes...

Post by Lee Littlewood » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:24 am

" I'd read about using 0000 steel wool to knock it down, but every piece I've ever picked up was treated with a light oil."

Yup. There is a special 0000 steel wool made with no oil for the use of picture framers - I think I got mine at Sepp Leaf in New York. One package will last a long time.
It is also good for roughing up clear varnish in matte centers. This would be when you are doing a Boston gild or a 2tone and you put the varnish on, let it dry, then watergild over it. By abrading the surface slightly you get a more frosty matte effect, plus it helps hide those ... holidays that had to be retouched. But don't try this with 00 steel wool!!! It's like big, uneven gouges - ask me how I know...
where am i? Now, when i need me...

Trip Bauer
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 1:05 pm
Location: North Florida

Re: Paint, backing up and brushes...

Post by Trip Bauer » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:02 pm

Thanks Lee, I'll have to track some down and then figure out how to store it long term in Florida, where things seem to rust at the bottom of a barrel of oil :)

I wound up scraping and redoing it, the ridges were too bad and chipped too much. 3' wide was too much to do in a single pass, so on the second one I sliced the mask into 5 sections and painted and peeled almost immediately. No ridges to speak of, but the timing is still being worked out, I wound up with some wisps of paint drawn into the open areas from the static of pulling the mask. I'll get some pics of the first piece to post hopefully later today; isn't what I'd want to charge to do, but it's pretty dang good for a first attempt IMHO.

Trip

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