Posted by Mike Jackson on September 18, 2003
Vance GalliherHi all,
I just hung up the phone telling a potential customer I was busy with a couple of other projects and couldn't do his "gold" lettering on his window. I had waited a couple of days to call him back, thinking I might have been taking everything wrong from the first call...but then I felt I should follow my gut instincts.
In the first phone contact, he told me he wanted gold lettering on the window over his doorway. It was an office complex entry. I know different customers have varying definitions of "gold" so I tried to figure this guy out over the phone. I asked him if he wanted real 23k gold leaf or something cheaper that might look similar? He didn't know. I asked if he had a budget? He wouldn't tell me. I asked if he heard figures from between $200 for vinyl or $1000 for gold, would he know if he really wanted to spend the higher amounts. He wouldn't commit. I asked if his entry was busy. He said it was the front entry and people come and go all the time. When I told him it might matter based on having to get down off ladders each time, he backed up and said it wasn't that busy. (I hand lettered the front doors of a Credit Union when I was younger, and it happened to be on payday. Took forever) I asked about a logo. He didn't have one. I asked about letterstyles. After initially saying no, he came back with "Well, it might be Lucidia, but not sure".
I felt as though I was having to pry tidbits of crucial information from him one piece at a time. Maybe if I had made an appointment with him, loaded up a bunch of samples and drove out to the complex, I might have had a different impression of him and the project. When I couldn't get him to steer me along with all the budget questions, I felt like it was going to be a wasted trip.
Actually, I am busy with another project right now, so passing on this one requiring a lot of out of the shop time makes reasonable sense. Still, I am not used to passing on a job and it lingers on my mind. I have learned over the years to trust my initial instincts. It seems that when I override them, about half way through the project I kick myself for not listening to them.
Does anyone else go through this? There is obviously no right or wrong answer, so the discussion might be interesting.
Mike Jackson
D. Bernhardthi mike........just had a similiar experience.....they came to me wanting a sign......i asked what the budget was,........ and said i can make a beautiful piece for that price.....and that i would proceed with a concept if they agreed that i would do the work ......and they did,....... i completed current projects, call and said i'll have some drawings next week...........they said great, and by the way we have a couple other shops giving us bids......and i saw the "flag"....and i said good-bye!!.......i made a decision some years back the i would never do bid work !.....because it is a total waste of my time and energy....i'm not interested in that kind of work......i say follow your heart.....vance
Rick SacksHi again Goldie....am pleased to here others have the same "vibe" thing going also. Many times have had the same conversation the only difference that might have occurred with "your" client would be that I would have required him to come see me rather than taking the "risked time" to go see him with samples. In fact when i had a larger shop in the city it was almost a basic requirement with anyone other than a regular. If they were'nt ready to take a few minutes or better an hour from their shcedule they were'nt qualified at least price wise. My call is you saved an hour or 3 here. Haven't read the other reply's below yet and will scroll down shortly...all to say this is an "un-fettered" response.
a bit moreThere is a personality type that I've come to recognize that blind sides me. The guy is smoothe. He radiates success. He drives a Mercedes with gold wipers on the lights. He wants the best when he first starts talking and draws me into his project and I feel lured with his bait. Over the years, I've learned to call Megan to deal with these types. This is where that vibe misleads me.
Mike Jackson...a quick P.S. many times once i met the client on "my ground" they seemed quite different than my initial impression
Hi Doug,
Nice to see your voice again! We have all those intricate glass art panels here at home (our shop), but I really don't even have any of the basic two or three tone glass sign samples anymore. They all went with the shop when we sold it EIGHT years ago. We didn't do that much basic glass gilding on location back when we had the shop either. Most of it was more ornate and done on new glass in the shop and then installed by the glass company.
Today's conversation was very short and clean. I didn't want to drag it out with any sort of long explanation. He sounded a bit surprised when I told him I was going to pass on it, but said okay. I said "thanks" and hung up the phone.
This forum wasn't getting a lot of posts in the last week, so I thought I'd make the post to shake the trees.
Mike
D. Bernhardt
CarolHey Goldie...you shake the tree's well! However I'm gonna give you some. Having the ornate pieces arround the shop lent HUGE creedance to the simple glass jobs. And because you were/are deeply motivated to produce the high end product (as you certainly have proved) those were the jobs that you did. Your energy and motivation showed and the clients couldn't resist!!personnally I loved those easy 2 tone gild jobs. Usually a transom for a client who wanted the "real thing" and they were halcion days...quiet, the phone never rang...interesting people going in and out below me and just a general break from the rough and tumble. For those few hours you could count on being alone with your thoughts.
Larry WhiteMike, keep an eye on that door and give us an update. I think you're already gonna steer clear of it. I would.
John GrenierAhh... the art of listening to your own intuition. It's always the best guide. One should not ignore the red flags as they arrise. If it's starting out funky, it's bound to only get funkier. Like jobs that start going south seem to continue to go south. I suppose it's always your choice to participate or not. Heck you could turn the table on your customer and ask him to bring over to your shop photographs of the jobsite, a specific drawing of what he wants, and all the other particulars you can dream up. You could show him some samples and tell him you'll give him a quote in a day or two. That'll give you time to better feel out him and the project and decide if you really want to do it. I would not suggest feeling guilty over turning down work that's going to be a pain in the you know what. Or, just charge accordingly (25% weird vibe fee). If you NEED the work, do what you gotta do. If you don't, wouldn't you rather be doing your own thing. Over here at Milestone Mfg. we're never embarrassed to say no thanks when the red flags fly. ...I'd always rather work on my own stuff over theirs...
-LW
Danny BaronianLarry's suggestion about the client bringing photos is a good one. Over the past few years with the use of digital cameras I have had some success with customers photographing thier site and emailing the picture. I always ask that they have some unit of measure in the picture or even place a yard stick or have someone stand there.
It works good, if the job merrits the effort you can even superimpose your sketch into the picture.
The very least you can just look at the picture and only spend a few minutes on the phone and be rid of the shoppers.
Another good sales reason is that the client is also investing time and effort in you and that becomes important. The more effort the client spends on the project, ie; pictures, measuring, color matching, fonts, etc. The more focused your efforts will be.
Of course, many clients just want to write a check and get magic and those are the best jobs.
John
Mike JacksonDoes anyone else go through this?
Sure do, but not often. Disregard your initial instinct a few times makes you wiser next time.
Makes you wonder, why so cagey? Tire kicker, or another sign shop? Another shop may be far fetched in your area, but it's been done.
Danny
The guy never told me how he heard of us. Our yellow page ad doesn't mention gold leaf, so maybe our old shop got the same vibes and sent him to us. They can't do gold leaf windows anyway. Maybe Sign Gold, but not real leaf. I do think he was for real. He gave me the address and all his information, so it wasn't another sign shop trying to find out how much to charge. He very well might have been a shopper looking for a free site walk, suggestions and ideas. I would have felt better about it if he had balked at the $1000 price range, but he didn't say it was too much or okay. I got absolutely no feel of his concept other than the word "gold" and the name of the building. Oh well, maybe the next person can help him.
Thanks for the comments so far.
Mike
John Grenier
From your description of the call sounds like maybe you were not dealiing with the boss, but someone given a task.
I like to determine a budget from the customer first before I do anywork. Though of course that can be difficult, but usually showing your pictures and stating the price range, a figure can be found quickly. When they do the fish dance, that's when they fall to the floor and flop all around, and if they don't go away you have a sale worth your time.
In my area there are a couple others around to kick them to, a router guy who gives his stuff away, a purely vinyl and edge garage shop with no talent and a drunk unreliable signwriter.
The money part for me is getting easier with the passing of 25 years. Sometimes people just need to be told what to do. Before I do a sketch I get money from new people, no exceptions. Also I use a couple different payment methods; first 50% dep balance on completion and when the budget is a real issue prepay and deduct 5%.
This past season we did a complete sign package for the new library built in our town. Glue Chip and etched glass stuff and an exterior sign with carved gilded letters and some great interior murals. We did that job in thirds
1/3 for design when all the drawings were complete and approved, 2/3 for fabrication and install. 3/3 when everything is complete.
Sorry about going on about this but I think alot of people who visit this site probably havn't had that much experience yet.
After all I went to art school not buisness school.
These practices have kept me from becoming a "vendor victim" I learned alot in California dealing with asian clients. Danny Bussel can contribute here.
John
John Grenier
P.S. to last post
Upon rereading my response, last sentence could be misinterpreted as not wanting to deal with asians in california, the message is about dealing with overseas clients in large bid projects. It became clear to us that the practice seemed to be unique to Japanese, Singapore and Korean clients of getting several different breakdowns of parts of the jobs and with that information they could actually figure out your breakeven point and use that as their base line.
John
Denver Chapter of the Letterheads