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This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.

Concerns about Acid Etching:

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian

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Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: Jackson Hole, WY
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Concerns about Acid Etching:

Post by Mike Jackson »

Hi Forum readers,
Larry White posted a very nice thread earlier today about a new acid etching process he has been trying. I had a couple of concerned readers, so I deleted it and asked Larry to try it again without being quite so technical and just give an overview. I think he will do it later.

Many of the tools we use in the sign trade have a level of risk associated with them...from X-Actos, to carving tools, routers, band saws and so forth. Acid Etching has a much higher level of risk for the novice, and without proper training, ventilation, and protection, a serious accident could occur. The hosts at this forum have to be cautious of any sort of litigation following an accident.

On the old Forum, Lee Littlewood began a thread voicing the same concerns. Here's the link to that thread. There is some pretty good information included in the lively discussion.
http://www.theletterheads.com/wwwboard/ ... /2002.html

For anyone interested in doing any sort of acid etching, you should read this MSDS page:
https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/11171.htm

In the discussions about Glue-Chipping, one of the steps requires frosting the glass. Following along the lines of this topic, you should also use care and caution from both the blasting process but also the secondary risk of breathing in airborn particles. Read your equipment instructions and follow their advice on safety requirements.

Mike Jackson - Co-host
Last edited by Mike Jackson on Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Larry White
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

Another point of view...

Post by Larry White »

...never mind...

I can understand your point of view...

If anyone is interested in learnining more about acid etched glass, they can contact me directly.

...and look both ways before you cross the street. :D
Last edited by Larry White on Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: Jackson Hole, WY
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posts

Post by Mike Jackson »

The last thing I want is to be "big brother". I had two choices here tonight and made the one which made most sense to me. I could have left it on and edited a line or two within it or under it suggesting care and caution, and maybe that was enough. You had mentioned the name of a person in England that gave you the formulas and steps, but from what I understand he could get into some "trouble" there for giving away long held secrets. I deleted the post to protect him during the interim period until you find out if it was okay to include his name.

Since your post, I added the link to the rules and disclaimers. I can and will shut this thing down tomorrow if I feel leaving it up jeopardizes me or puts me (or the other hosts) in a position to get sued for allowing dangerous techniques to be described here. It sounds like you are miffed, and you probably have a right to be that way, but I was put into a position to have to make a judgement call. I might have made a different call on a different day, but I can stand behind this one tonight.

With all that said, and hopefully behind me, I really do appreciate your efforts here. We are all enjoying seeing your project(s) and I know your post about the white etch process was intended to be informative and inspiring. Carry on!

Mike
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Raymond Chapman
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:50 pm
Location: Temple. Texas

Hang in there

Post by Raymond Chapman »

Mike has one of those jobs that none of us would envy. Whatever he does it will upset someone.

I'm sure that Larry is upset over the decision, but it was the decision that Mike felt was the best, otherwise he would not have made it.

Whenever we post here we agree to the rules. Since Mike is the "boss" he has the final word. I, for one, certainly would not like to see this forum go away. Mike's job has a lot of responsibility, and not just to keep us all happy.

Hang in there Mike, you're doing a great job.
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: Jackson Hole, WY
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acid

Post by Mike Jackson »

I have probably written about this before, but now looks like a good time to write it again.

Back when we had the old shop, we hosted a small "art camp" style meeting and had a nice enthusiastic group. A couple of people worked on glass. We set up an area in the back room for some acid etching, including some highly visible markings on the table. We did the Mica version of the process so we wouldn't have to worry about vats of acid and it sloshing around. I had added red food coloring to all acid parts so people could steer clear of anything red. Everything went great.

Later that evening, I was cleaning up the area. The bottle of 49% Hydroflouric acid had the lid sitting right beside it and the little white liner in the cap was just off to the side. Without thinking, I picked up the liner and shoved it into the cap and then screwed it on the bottle. At that very instant, I realized what I had done and headed to the sink to wash the tip of my finger. The liner had a single drop of 49% acid on it, but of course it hadn't been colored.

I opened the first aid kit and found the acid neutralizer and soaked by finger in it, but knew I was in trouble when I felt it start tingling, then hurting, then throbbing. I drove over to the Instant medical clinic, but it was closed and opted not to go to the emergency room. The pain got worse through the night and finally subdued some around 1 in the morning with the aid of quite a few asperins. Within a week, I had a very nice sore but no permanent damage, other than the memory of the experience.

By the time the acid is diluted for use with normal acid etching, it is still dangerous but not as potent as staight out of the bottle. There is plenty of concern, but 10% acid is much more tolerable than 49% strength.

Rick talked about it, and I personally can understand the issue. If you touch the powerful stuff, it immediately starts sinking into your skin and heads towards the bone. You can put topical neutralizers on the surface, but the acid is already ahead of the neutralizer. In some cases, the doctor will inject the neutralizer (with a long needle) into the wound area "in front" of the acid to stop it as it penetrates. For my experience, I can tell you it hurt VERY BAD. It throbbed and kept feeling worse, even after you thought it couldn't get worse. By about midnight, I was wondering how bad it could get.

I learned my lesson, so maybe I am a bit more cautious here when we start discussing it than I would be if I hadn't been burned. If anyone ever watched Rick at a conclave, I can tell you I was quite concerned about his use of it there. He carried vats fo the stuff around while wearing sandals. I would never want to make that process look "too easy". Again, he was using 10%-20% strength acid in the vats, but that is enough to keep me spooked.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Larry White
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

Acid Handling...

Post by Larry White »

Hey Mike,
I know exactly what you mean, I was there (Conclave) and witnessed it too. It spooked the heck out of me too and I'm glad it all went off without incedent. People were handling the stuff a bit too nonchalantly for my blood. In fact I stood by with half an adrenelin rush to ensure no one who didn't know what was going on might try to touch the acid or something. I think Rick got a lot wiser about doing acid work in a group setting after that.

I had to drain a tray of dilute HF one time and realized my handling techniques could be improved. I built this drain table that I currently use and it works quite well. Whether etching face-up on the glass or face-down in a vat, I place it on this table. When done, the top board, which is hinged, tilts upward and the acid drains down into the gutter and out the tube back into the container. It works pretty slick. Typically, I will drain the acid off prior to removing the glass from the vat. That way if for some reason the glass were to slip, it won't be splashing down in a pool of acid. In the background of the photo is the positive airflow booth I do my etching in. For those of you interested in ornamental glass work, might I suggest leaving acid etching as the last thing to learn. Learn the glue chipping and sand carving and gilding and ornamentation first. Then seek hands-on instruction from an experienced instructor. I have done acid etching for a dozen years and haven't (knock on wood) got any on me, nor do I plan too.

Image


Never compromise safety, never be distracted from the task at hand. Know what you're working with.

CAUTION: READ ALL SAFETY LITERATURE AND INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USING HYDROFLOURIC ACID OR ANY OTHER DANGEROUS MATERIALS THAT MIGHT BE MENTIONED ON THE BULLETIN BOARD! PROPER USE, HANDLING AND DISPOSAL OF HAZARDOUS MATERIALS IS THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE END USER ONLY!!

Image
Here it is in action. This picture is of an initial white etch process. This device works quite well, however, I think I will modify the drain hose from 1/2" to 3/4"
Larry White
That's enough for now... it's gettin' late
Town Of Machine
http://www.walljewelry.com
Larry White
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

Drain Table in Action...

Post by Larry White »

posted new photo. -LW
Ron Berlier
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:27 am

Post by Ron Berlier »

Hello Forum Readers,

For a long time I have wondered about the type of gloves and other equipment one should seriouly consider having on hand when using Hydroflouric Acid and I would like to begin using it myself. However, I have noticed that while many folks, who use the stuff, have made very good suggestions the information has lacked in specificity.

Today, while on another form, I happended on an individual who works in a chemical lab and it seemed worth while to ask his opinion, which I did and this is his reply:

[b]"My druthers are not to work with it.
In order of preference
1) Teflon gloves
2) Large nitrile outer gloves with an inner glove of nitrile
3) Butyl rubber with an inner glove of nitrile
4) PVC outer with an inner glove of nitrile

I used to do haz mat clean-ups that involved HF. Double gloves are best. Be very, very careful. Wear a Tyvek outer suit and get a good rubber apron. Wear a face mask. Have good ventilation (and possibly acid cartridges in a respirator). Have neutralizer solution on hand and ready to use. HF is a bone-seeker. It will get on your skin and go in until it hits bone. Burns should be flushed w/ copious amounts of water and then neutralized."[/
b]

I don't offer this as exactly what you should use, but as reliable information from someone in the field. It would obviously be a good idea to confirm this information with the supplier you purchase any of these items from. Be sure they know EXACTLY what you will be using the items for and use sound judgement in your purchases.

I hope this information will prove valuable for anyone that plans on using this very dangerous chemical.

PS. Read the Saftey Data Sheet and for heaven sakes if you buy the saftey equipment USE IT!
Ron Berlier
Wherever I go, there I am.
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