Applying silvering solution around pre-gilded areas

[Stan Hubbard]

Hello out there lettering / gilding guru's, I am in need of some guidance please. I have been working on a gilding project that has me stumped. I have chipped a large letter on a pane of glass that I intend on mirroring. I gilded the letter, (angel gilding pour method), and backed it up with black enamel, re-masked and used the same enamel to establish the perimeter paint-line. I then re-cleaned the rest of the pane and applied the silver. Two things happened: First, the silver didn't want to take to the glass right up to the paint line on portions of the letters perimeter. Second, using the pouring method to apply the silver, the silvering solution leached gold out from under,( through), the back-up paint. I used a small amount of Bon-Ami and a piece of sponge with warm water to clean the glass up to the paint-line before applying the silver. Should I use another method? When I get ready to apply the silvering solution this time should I apply it with a spray bottle instead of the pour method to minimize any soaking / leaching effect or am I missing something at the backing-up stage? The enamel provided by the Angel Gilding folks seemed like good paint to me in general. Anyway, I'm on "take-three" and really want to be successful this time! I'm also going to try some UV-glue for the first time soon, do you have experience with a particular UV-light that you would suggest? Thank you VERY much for any insight you can provide! ARGH! Stan Hubbard

[Doug Bernhardt]

Hi Stan. There are quite a few ways to get this done but the method I use is 1/ prepare glass as usual (clean tin etc) with a dam for the gilded areas of hot glue after that...everything is quite wet right now 2/ angel gild what you want gold 3/ peel of the glue....should be quite easy and silver the balance all done in quick succession. then continue backing up as you would normally as no more fluids can be used from this point on. The english have some back-ups that will put up with the beating of silvering but I can't help there. Good luck......it will be fun.

[Robare M. Novou]

Stan, you might not have the right tinning solution.

There is one type of tinning solution for just glass and no painted outlines.

And there is another type for glass and whatever else is on the glass, i.e. painted outlines.

Sounds like you have the tinning solution for just the glass.

The dual purpose tinning solution is available from several sources, but Sarah should be able to help you out with it.

I might have silvered and backed up the glass first, with the painted and to be gilded areas masked off. Remove masking and then angel gild the areas that you want gilded next.

I tend to base my step squence on several factors, The glass, the type of paint Im using for outlines, the temperature in the shop, the size of the areas to be gilded and/or silvered. The score of the football game, whether theres peanut butter in my chocolate, etc.

I've done the steps both ways, gilding first/silvering second, and silvering first/gilding second. Both ways work.

You may not have cleaned around your outlines good enough, try some cerium oxide with a q-tip, rise well, and tin with the dual purpose tinning solution, and be sure not to soak things too long that you cause your painted outlines to rise off the glass.

RMN

[DAVE SMITH]

Stan. theres your answer right there from what Robare has mentioned (and be sure not to soak things too long that you cause your painted outlines to rise off the glass.) I've done this before......this can happen very quickly but with sericols 2 pack paints now you will not experience this problem. Cleaning is better done with whitning .amonia and stilled water mixed together it will not give you any problems with the silvering deposit.Try and stay away from Bonami for any chemical deposition ,it may work but the amonia cleaning is the best way to go.
Only my personal views here ....we all go about it in different ways........
goodluck
Dave

[Robare M. Novou]

Here is a link to some information about the sericol and silvering procedures, as told by Bruce Jackson:
http://www.goldreverre.com/technique/mirrors.html

Hey Dave, thanks for your input on this!

I will have to get some of that sericol stuff, do you have an idea of the cost and amount of material you get for that or those prices?

And does it come in colors?

RMN

[Danny Baronian]

Sericol, by Nazdar makes ADE 2 part epoxy screen ink. The following info was copied from their spec sheet: http://www.nazdar.com/pdf/ADE_TDS_Rev_6_CR_011909.pdf

Sericol also makes black FDE, fast drying enamel, which Rick sold as black back up paint. It currently sells for about $ 70 a gallon,available only in gallons.

DRYING/CURING
ADE Series dries to touch by solvent evaporation in approximately 30-60 minutes at room
temperature or force-dry for 3-5 minutes at temperatures of 150º-180ºF (66º-83ºC). Room
temperature drying may take 5-7 days or more for complete cure. Good air circulation is
necessary to remove the vaporized solvents. Multiple layers of ink may require longer
drying times than a single layer.
Most ADE printed colors may be baked for 10 minutes at 300º - 325ºF (150º - 164ºC).\

Opaque black 32.20 qt.
ADE std colors aprox $ 47 qt.
Thinner $ 51 gallon
Catalyst $ 60.80 qt.

A variety of colors are available, check the PDF link above for their full line of colors.

Prices are approximately 4 years old

Epoxy inks generally have a shelf life of a year, stored in a cool, dark cabinet.

For those not familiar with Bruck Jacksons site, take time to browse the site, he's assembled some very good information.

The Sericol ADE is different than mentioned on Bruce Jacksons site. ADE has been used by Kelley Signs in Canada for their mirrors.

[Doug Bernhardt]

Well this is interesting. The method I mentioned earlier was something I saw at Glawson and Evans and I'll have to try this as it might explain how this was done. Dave otta have a better idea. I don't imagine this antique has epoxy paints being used although I have read that the old masters had discovered something that would put up with the silvering afterwards.

[Sarah King]

I haven't tried the epoxy paints but I think you can block the mirroring chemicals with asphaltum and I know you can block them with vinyl mask.

Stan phoned me and I suggested that he 1) clean the entire piece completely 2) mask the area to be silvered with vinyl mask 3) Angel Gild the gold area and let it dry completely 4) paint the gold area with asphaltum or with Black Enamel and then asphaltum 5) let the painted area cure overnight 6) lift the mask 7) reclean the bare glass with glass cleaner (no cerium oxide - you don't want to have that residue on the glass and it would scratch the paint) rinse, tin and silver the rest of the glass 9) dry and paint the silvered area.

I would not suggest trying to gild the glass and then silver it without having a paint layer between the two because you would have to tin over the gold. Pouring tin over the gold is a good way to antique it but not good if you want a pure gold appearance.

I think it is best to work and think in separate layers. Since gold is more sensitive and expensive than silver, I would start with getting that right. Asphaltum really does stick to glass and it's possible that its the paint the old timers used.

I'm always a little doubtful about Bon Ami as a cleaner since you don't rinse it off the glass. The deal with detergent molecules - as in glass cleaner - is that one end of the detergent molecule grabs a grease molecule and the other end grabs a water molecule. When you rinse the glass the detergent molecule pulls the grease molecule off and takes it away. I think Bon Ami is basically a polishing compound rather than a cleaning compound. Ammonia dissolves the grease and suspends it in water but does not attach the grease molecule to the water molecule as detergent molecules do. Detergents don't have an odor problem either.

I'm not sure what Robere means by a "dual use" tinning solution. All tinning solution is made with stannous chloride but the amount of stannous chloride in the water is different. Gold works best with a stronger solution and silver attaches more firmly to the glass when the concentration is fairly weak. You can use one concentration of tin for both but neither metal would be in its "optimal enviroment" as it were.

[Robare M. Novou]

Stan, not sure if you hand paint your outlines using a pattern or use a mask. 99% of my outlines are done using a vinyl paint mask, that way I am able to double coat the outlines, after the paint sets up a bit (gets tacky) I pull the vinyl mask off, and let the outlines dry hard, with the edges rounding over, so that there are no sharp edges to get hung up on while cleaning. Having double coated outlines, makes for a tougher film of paint, that you will be "gently" rubbing up against and over during your cleaning steps.

I've also seen the silk screening articles in the sign magazines where they screen the image outlines twice, for obtaining the same toughness and resistance to breaking down during cleaning.

I've cleaned up to the edges of painted outlines using, bon ami, cerium oxide, pumice, alumina powder, and hydrochloric acid.
Doing so in a gently fashion, works most of the time. Its that too much soak time, and the rinse water will start to works its way under the outlines.

I have had some lifting from too much soak time, but if you get those sericol epoxies, that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Now about the two types of tin, they are both made with Stannous Chloride. One is just for glass, the other is made for Non Glass Surfaces (NGS), The NGS seems to have additional chemicals added to it to give the tin more holding power on screen print inks and plastics. Its kinda soapy, so I think that it may contain a surfactant (soap) agent. Sort of like when the old timers, and some not so old gilders, use a drop of soap in the size to help when gilding over painted outlines.

NGS is available from Mirror Tech, inc. 1011 Freeway Drive Reidsville, NC 27320. phone 336-342-6041 Ask for Doug.
He travels the country selling the mirror tech products, and if he's in your neck of the woods, he may stop by for a visit, and some free samples!

Peacock labs may also have a version of NGS. call and find out

And given some time, I'm sure Sarah and Mike will add it to there stock.

I use NGS tin exclusively for straight mirroring with no outlines and mirroring glass signs with outlines. Also works well with gold solutions.

On your edges of the glass, you say that the silver is not depositing, you may not be getting enough of the chemicals in that area, try spraying the chemicals on those stuborn areas using spray bottles. Keep up the spraying until you see the silver start to grow and deposit.

Or you may be expriencing "wicking", where by the tin you just rinsed off is wicking back up from the sides and under sides of the glass and re-invading (contaminating) the areas you are trying to silver. Rinse well with lots of distilled water, till even the underside comes clean. these areas of non deposit also happen around the edge area of the glass that is in contact with a support, like if you laid the glass across two sticks, where ever the edge comes in contact with the sticks, is an area more prone to wicking. Try using some double sided tape or rubber pieces to raise the glass off the sticks (supports). Place these rubber/tape risers more toward the center of the glass so that nothing is contacting the edge from the underside....and dont forget to level your glass!

RMN