Keeping your water size warm

[William Holohan]

Old Forum Posts: on July 15, 2003

Robert Beverly

I have been told that keeping your size warm/hot will give a better gild...

True or False?

and can you reheat it after it has been sitting for a while if this is the case?

Thanks

Kent Smith

Warm size tends to spoil faster starting with a mildew which appears as a cloud in the gild. Cold size keeps better and there is little difference in drying. Actually cold size flows longer than warm size. When granulated gelatin was used, the size had to be boiled for a few minutes and the gild was brighter when used hot because as it cooled, mildew formed much faster with that product. Sheet or capsule has already been cooked and reconsituted so it spoils more slowly. It is possible to reheat for a hot wash but not after about 4 hours

.

Mike Jackson

Robert,
I believe you can heat your size up in the morning and it is good all day (but not for several days). Most old gold "kits" had a small Sterno can for heating their size on the site, but they did not reheat it that I am aware of....except maybe for the final bath if necessary.

Before Rick ran across the geletin cooking sheets, we had to use geletin capsules. They were much thicker and took quite a while to fully dissolve. It was more of a hassle than the thin little sheets which dissolve in a minute or two. If you feel like having warm, fresh size makes a better gild, then mix new stuff up all day long, but remember to dilute it on the second gild.

One last comment: We always dissolved our geletin in half the required amount of water, heated it, then added the other half to speed up the cooling process.

Mike Jackson

Miker Jackson

Just out of curiosity, I reviewed my 1980 edition of LeBlanc/Sarti Gold Leaf Techniques book. It says: "Now you can add enough cold water to make up the required amount of size, and it is ready for use. There is no point in heating the size. It is used cold."

Mike Jackson

Carol

I use a thermos.

Robert Beverly

Mike/Carol

Thankee!...I have not noticed anything different between the gilds but had heard that it helped being warm...

Only thing I have noticed was mold after a few days left out!...

John Studden

I always use my hot/cold water Tea/Coffee machine
to make the size. Soak 4 daimonds sheet gelatine
in i" of water for twenty minutes (old coffee jar)
then simply top off with hot water from the
machine and give it a stir. When working in the
shop I use this straight away, or simply take it
on site. Hot or cold the gold is equally bright,
and can be used for up to 6 hours.

Ron Percell

During the last project I assisted Glawson with, he discussed the heat assisting in breaking down the gelatin, but that tap water temp. was fine.

I've also learned to flood a gilded area after burnishing one final time, in which the final bath of size increases the strength of the gild.

Rick Sacks

I was taught to do the final bath with hot water and NO gelatin, that this might wash away any clouding from the previous size. The temperature of the size never seemed to make a differance in the gild, but the hot size didn't stay flooded as long for gilding. Hot glass was the real pain.

Robare M. Novou

I read or was told, that the final bath with gelatin puts on a coating over the back of the leaf. This coating then prevents an oil based backup paint(one shot or such) from penetrating the gold leaf and ruining the gild. There was no need to do this if you were using a varnish based backup paint(japan/king cole paint)as it does not penetrate the gild.

Also...several old books mention the addition of alcohol to the size to either keep it clear, or make it last longer...up to a year or longer.

I tried the alcohol in my size...and noticed nothing different or clearer, even after gilding. I keep this mixture for a year...and yes there was no cloud in it, unlike the mixture I keep that had no alcohol in it, that one had a cloud.

We used the year old unclouded mixture, and the gold did not stick that well. Seems the final wash was lifting the gold off the window. I have to call brendon brandon and see if the lettering fell off. that was 10 years ago.

I get the feeling the alcohol in the mixture was not for clearing up the gild...but to be drunk by the alcoholic signpainters we heard so much about from years past, so that HIS HEAD could become cloudy.

Now that the demand for gilding on storefront windows and glass signs has deminished, and materials have improved, we no longer have need for alcohol in the size OR in the shop , this in turn has caused the alcoholic sign painter to look elsewhere for employment. As that person can no longer get drunk on the job. And use the excuse..."that ther alcohol is fer the gild sir."

When was the last time you saw an alcoholic cutting vinyl?

D. Bernhardt

all of the above have ben extremely interesting and given the passion of everyone here...extremely civilized. But to answer the question when did i last see an alcoholic laying vinyl....why that was the last time i was at L.A Signs in burbank! ;=)

Ron Percell

The alcohol would of been added for evaporation purposes, say cold windows, not sure that it would or could make the size clear. Time for a side by side comparison

Mike Jackson

Rick and Ron,
That is exactly what my 1980 Gold Leaf Techniques book says, too. No gelatin at all in the final bath (assuming you even do one).

Mike

Robare M. Novou

I took a look in the "Wagner textbook of gilding" printed in 1950. In a paragraph on page 40, the author states..."Many gilders add a few drops of grain alcohol, which they believe clarifies the gild and enhances the burnish."

I want also to touch on the condition of the water back in the old days, I am not sure how pure the water was back then as compared to the water now. Could this have been a reason for the alcohol? Were some gilders using well water, and others using city water, I think that sometimes was the case, but Im not sure.

In the same paragraph, Mr wagner metions that "the old-timers would use only distilled water, but that is going to unnecessary extremes."

Unnecessary or not, I always use distilled water.

I know that their are those that swear by the final wash of hot water...and others that say its not needed. I do the hot wash with some gelatin in it. I like to give the gold an even coat of water to make it all wet at the same time and then let it dry. I for the most part am trying to take out any runs that I may have in the gold from size that may have run down into a dry area, if I dont do the final wash...I can sometimes see the dry runs.

From the strongs gilding booklet of 1928, comes this info...."By adding a small quantity of pure grain alcohol, or a little ether, to the size, you can get a much clearer gild. Also the size will keep for several weeks, or longer, if kept tightly corked or sealed in a glass jar."

RMN

John Studden

A final bath of diluted size can be helpful when screen printing & will act as a sealer to prevent
picking off any gold, especially if doing more than one print. I have found that pouring hot wate
on the job makes very little difference to the
brightness of the gild.

[Mark Summers]

Wonder if we can beat this dead horse again.
As I just finished my new shop window I need to see what
could possibly be the solution to my cloudy gild. Can't seem
to get away from this. the only way I was able to do o.k. this
time is that most of the lines are less than 1/8" and you would
have to really get up close to see the cloud. I remember seeing
Bob Mitchell's work in Aspen many years ago and he could lay
out large areas of gold and make it look like a mirror.
Here is what I did.
1. Cleaned the glass with cake Bon-Ami and power cleaner.
2. Wipe down with (distilled) water and toilet tissue
3. Four diamonds/ 16 oz. water. I have a coffee mug heater.
Don't really think it mattered if I used the gild solution warm
a relatively cool.
4. Gild away. Did not wash down the gild after drying but
maybe I should try that next time. Maybe water only.

Seem like some differing opinions on what people do to achieve
their results. This cloudy gild thing has haunted me for many
years and just can't seem to make that end of it look the way
I want it to. Any thoughts or questions? Thanks for your help.

Mark

[Jerry Berg]

Hi Mark,

Maybe it is your step #1.... Cleaned the glass with cake Bon-Ami and power cleaner
No powder cleaner, just bon ami.

and your step #2... Wipe down with (distilled) water and toilet tissue

Are you doing this after the glass has been cleaned with bon ami?
Clean 'er 3 times with bon ami and gild - leave the toilet paper for its proper use!

[Mark Summers]

Thanks for the response Jerry.
-Cake Bon-Ami like the bar soap stuff.
-After I do the electrical orbital appliance I water
off the Bon-Ami and tissue it dry as to maybe
clean off any Bon-Ami specs I think.

Mark

[Patrick Mackle]

If we are to test this proceedure I think it should be started by focusing first on several groups of glass that will be cleaned in what are believed to be the best way, as listed in this post.
Then I think that the various gelatin solutions should be applied in their conditions ie: warmed or cold, with or without alcohol, new or aged, to these cleaned glasses. But to study the clarity and bond of the gelatin exactly, no gold leaf should be applied. Instead, each glass sample should be positioned on a mechanism not unlike a spin coater, where the majority of the water will be displaced, much as it does when the gold leaf is applied. This will achieve a similar deposit of the dried gelatin residue. In this way, various results can be scrutinized as if the leaf had actually been applied. Even as to which gelatin brands possess the best clarity, gloss, and adhesion as well as the effect of water to gelatin ratios.
I am thinking that when gelatin is first produced into its commercial form, that it is done immediately after hydolization and formed quickly afterwards. I'm sure it has been worked out to produce the clearest , most appealing product. At some time depending on temperature, it may be in the nature of gelatin to condense with less clarity, or form a sort of "mother" if left to languish in a glass jar. Reheating may not reconstitute it 100%.
Maybe under common conditions of temperature and humidity it is possible for gelatin size to actually crystalize or craze beneath the gold leaf. This could certainly reflect in the brightness of the gild. It would be good to employ a microscope in evaluating test results.
If after all the testing is concluded, and a superior mixture becomes the forefront. A test to see if it would benefit by the addition of a surface tension modifier should be done just for "kicks".
Pat

[Billie DeBekker]

One thing that was told to me was..get rid of the Stainless steel Mixing bowl and use a Porcelain coated cup to mix my size in.. It did seem to help.. I really don't know if that was the culprit or not but gilds have been clearer since I switched.

I recently picked up 5 pounds of Powdered Gelatin that Mr. Glawson use to sell so I am curious if that is any better then the capsules which is what I use now.

[Mark Summers]

Now there might be something as I have been
using a stainless steel cup. Where did you
get the powdered gelatin William? How do
you measure it?

Mark

[Danny Baronian]

William,

you must be planning to gild the sate of Colorado! That's enough to pass on to your great great grandkids!

Unless the gelatin has been tightly sealed, and air free, there's a good chance it will not perform as well over time, and require a test before each job. Opened gelatin has a limited shelf life. Same goes for hide glue, or any other granulated product.

Rick swictched over to gelatin sheets, scored into diamond shapes long ago, available through stores that carry baking goods. Sheets are available here: http://www.amazon.com/NONE-Gelatin-Sheets/dp/B0008DIDFI, as well as other online suppliers for about $5 for 4 sheets.

Powdered geleatin sealed in individual packets are carried at most supermarkets in the baking goods isle under the name Knox gelatin. Another source for gelatin is at the local pharmacy, where you can buy empty gelatin capsuls. All are treated in the same way. Add to water, let sit for 15-20 minutes, heat till it disolves, add cold water to make 16 ozs.

Gelatin that's old, or exposed to air could lead to a cloudy gild, as would the use of metal containers.

Danny

[David Slade]

Mark,
Could you describe exactly what the cloud looks like? Is it dull and hazy? Or tiny lines through the gild?

I get the lines like spider-webbing in mine. Is this the same problem?

[Billie DeBekker]

Mark & Danny

As for the porcelain Cup.. Walmart Camping Section. $1.99 OHH "What a Bargain for you." I bought 10 so I have a Backup or 2 or 3 or 8. I am very pathetic when mixing my size.. I just heat it up with a Propane torch or when I get fancy a Single burner Propane Camp Stove.

But I also Call myself Ghetto Signs.

I picked up the Gelatin up at Bill Huegs and Dave Corell's Meet in Nov. More for Collectors sake as it was originally from Esoteric Signs Still Sealed. Rick (I forgot his last name) from Kansas had bought up the rest of Rick Glawsons shop on ebay. I purchased a good amount of off the wall stuff at that meet/class.

If you want to use powdered Gelatin, which really is a waste since there is much better gelatin out there now. You use enough Powder to cover a Dime per pint of water. Then you have to boil it and strain it.. to much headache when you can just drop a triangle or Capsule in water and go.. I use Capsules I just get at the Pharmacy 2 capsules per pint. Nice thing about where I live is our average Humidity here is 5% or less so I don't get the problem that most other people get with moisture problems... Makes it real nice for Glue Chipping.. I can usually chip a piece of glass in 6 to 8 hours.

[Mark Summers]

David,
You hit the nail on the head. Dull and hazey
would describe the look. I think Danny touched
on something too. That is that maybe the
gelatin triangles are just old. Think I will get
some new stuff also.

Mark

[Danny Baronian]

Check this link for size preparation:

http://www.goldreverre.com/resource/watersize.php

The link also lists a cause of cloudy gild.

While there, check out the rest of the site, it's a tremendous resource. Bruce must dream of gold in his sleep!

With gelatin, regardless of it's form, as well as related glues (hide glue), boiling will break down the cellular structure of proteins, rendering them weak or useless. Boil hide glue for chipping, and you'll find yourself wondering why it fails to chip.

David, another definition for cloudly would be as if you mixed a few drops of milk in the size, with the final appearance dull, rather that brillant gold, with a milky, 'cloudy' appearance.

Danny

[BruceJackson]

I feel that the quality of the gold leaf is a big factor too.

I remember doing a large window sign many years ago where I started with the an old book of gold, then continued the work using recently purchased books. The color of the gold was the same, but the texture was very different. In fact, the difference was so obvious, I had to take off all the older gold and re-do it. it was not actually cloudy, but it was much less mirror-like than the new gold. This with the same batch of size.

I never did work out exactly why. It could have been poor quality gold beating, maybe too much rouge powder, or maybe the texture of the paper had been imparted to the gold because of age. Either way, it taught me to stay with the same batch of gold leaf per job.

Another "must do" for a good result. Burnish gently with cotton wool after gilding which helps bring up the brightness, then do a full wash over with size. You can do this at the same time as patching holes.

----
Thanks for the link Danny,
I just re-read that page and realize I should update it. I now use sheets instead of capsules (easier to buy) and make the size even stronger than I used to. Typically a sixth of a sheet to make a batch of size, maybe 150-200ml of water. It's not exact because the strength of the gelatin varies anyway. I have a kettle that heats with a choice of temperature. I can choose 80 degrees for green tea. Perfect temperature for making size.