Graphite Mirror

[Ismael Alvarado]

Have you ever seen a Graphite Mirror?

well here you have it..

plastic spoons painted in 2k Urethane(black and white, High Gloss) and later aplied graphite powder(rubbing it over the glossy surface)

Black Base(2k Urethane Bc/Cc)




now with a white base(at the bottom)


can this be made in to a small square mirror? I´m sure it can be done..

[David Slade]

This is more down to my level! This whole series of silvering/chroming posts has been fascinating. Tho mostly over my noggin'. Thank you for sharing and for all your hard work.
Can I ask a few questions?

Are the black and white applied one-after-the-other or mixed?
Two part urethane?
Is there a final clear coat after the graphite?
The graphite is like the stuff for locks?

[Ismael Alvarado]

This is more down to my level! This whole series of silvering/chroming posts has been fascinating. Tho mostly over my noggin'. Thank you for sharing and for all your hard work.

I like to share my findings

Are the black and white applied one-after-the-other or mixed?

whe I said Black and White is because I used both color in separate spoons, not in the same or mixed. the black one is the first spoon you see in my post(black glossy spoon, it could be white also)

Two part urethane?

automotive grade catalized paint. the ones you mixed with catalizers so they harden very very strong. once they mix you have a small window of time to apply the paint, as it will harden go hard as a block if you do´nt do it on time. why do I use automotive grade paint? Well its much glossier than normal Enamels or lacquers and its alot stronger than both of them. BUT when working with them you have to use proper safety gear.

Is there a final clear coat after the graphite?
The graphite is like the stuff for locks?

I am testing many clears as we speak, most of them don´t work because they dull the mirror look. I want to see if I can do a square piece(resembling a mirror and not a spoon) and then put a clear glass over. should be doable. and the source for my graphite powder is Pencil grade 2HB and a fine grain sand paper grit(500)


I´ll be posting pics soon...

[Ismael Alvarado]

ok guys a few updates....

sinse clearing does dull the finish, I tried to Chrome Plate the plastic spoons(using graphite, nothing else)

Here on a 800 gallon nickel plating tank


here when I pulled the plastic spoon to show you it was being plated


here the finished product(is not the same spoon as you see in above pics, that one had a black background, this one has a white background and it was also chrome plated after the nickel)



here is the plastic spoon with nickel Only



what I can tell from this experience is, I need to sensitize the piece before nickel plating because its like when you silver a mirror without a sensitizer, the nickel is kinda loose, in some parts is strongly attached and in others is kinda loose, I´ll try a stanous chloride sensitizer. I can´t copper plated sinse here in Nicaragua we just don´t use copper plate at all, maybe a home made copper sulfate formula? I´ll keep you guys posted with progress

Thanks
Marvin

[Lee Littlewood]

It has always seemed to me that the critical part of silvering on plastic was the sensitizing, but we only tried it a couple of times. Judging by all the bar mirror advertisements in the world, somebody knows A) how to get acrylic to accept silver, and B) how to silver over paint without tarnishing the silver. (I'd really like to be able to print on glass, then silver, then print another layer and de-silver.)

The reading I did on sensitizing plastics talked about "reducing the surface energy" by chemicals or plasma exposure, which is just passing a flame over the surface. It is not a permanent change, but it lowers the surface energy and allows things to stick better - for us, that would mean getting the tin to flow evenly and adhere, then the silver to stick to that. I did a simple test with a propane torch, and it may have improved things but not too much.

You rock, Ismael.

[Ismael Alvarado]

well after manually peeling the nickel plated spoon, I found out that the nickel plated well to the graphite, but its the graphite not sticking to the shiny glossy 2k urethane paint(automotive grade) seems that they glossy surface is only good for the graphite to show its shine.

I´ll try it with a rough surface so the graphite has something to hold to

[Ismael Alvarado]

It has always seemed to me that the critical part of silvering on plastic was the sensitizing, but we only tried it a couple of times. Judging by all the bar mirror advertisements in the world, somebody knows A) how to get acrylic to accept silver, and B) how to silver over paint without tarnishing the silver.

sensitizing over plastic is very hard(I´ll be testing Mrs. King wetting agent for hard to wet surface to silver directly over plastic) but it can be overcome by covering(painting in this case) the plastic with a surface with less energy. but what paint? believe me when I say I have test them ALL. lacquer base, enamel base, even Oil base and none of them have work so far, the only paint that has work so far for me is automotive grade 2K(catalized) Urethane(by adding the catalizer it becomes PolyUrethane) of good quality(does not have to be the most expencive but a good grade is good enough) why? well its true that their surface tension is higher than the other mentioned paints but its not too much. and once they cure its cure for life, they wont release any more chemicals that will tarnish the silver.

one thing to keep in mind is painting over plastic is also hard, most paint will not stick to plastic for long. but I have overcome this using Krylon fusion paint for plastics. and you don´t even need one coat for the 2k urethane to stick. I do a mist coat(of Krylon fusion paint). wait for 10 minutes(5 is also good, but you can´t let it go for more than 24 hours) then I clear coat it with 2k urethane. let it cure for 24 hours and its ready for the silvering prosses.(I can´t get the paint off the plastic even trying with all my strenght, it just wont come off)

The reading I did on sensitizing plastics talked about "reducing the surface energy" by chemicals or plasma exposure, which is just passing a flame over the surface. It is not a permanent change, but it lowers the surface energy and allows things to stick better -

as stated above paint will reduce plastic´s natural hight surface tension, But seems like torching will help the silver to stick to the clear(I have never use this method, I never had that issue) here is a video of sean smith(seems he is now using angel gilding´s silver chemicals instead of peacock labs, it makes sense as he is saving about 60% on silvering chemicals, I´ve tried to contact him about the switch but he is not replying) using the Torch its on minute 2:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvcVCXj2 ... r_embedded

You rock, Ismael.

knowledge is power... Powe to the people

[Sarah King]

We've looked into the whole spray chrome thing and we think that the idea of torching the plastic before your silver it is not so much to change the surface energy as to melt the very top layer of plastic to make it shinier. The shinier the substrate the shiner the silver will look when you apply it. Of course, all that heat could easily distort the plastic so I wouldn't try it when working on a flat mirror.

If you want the silver to stick you have to get the tin sensitizer to stick. To do that you have to "wet" the surface. We've tested a large number of wetting agents on acrylic, polycarbonate and polyurethane. We've tried using them as a pre-treatment and mixing them in with the sensitizer. We had our best results using the Wetting Agent we sell as a pre-treatment.

We have also tried a lot of clear lacquers and polyurethane, both one part and two part, as clear top coats over the silver. So far as we can tell, the top coat always makes the silver look yellow unless you tint it first with transparent violet dye. And it does tend to dull the reflectivity. The silver never looks as shiny, as reflective, as silvered glass although it can look pretty good - at least the photos I've seen of other people's work look pretty good.

Lee - If you want to silver flat, clear plastic try using Lexan (polycarbonate) instead of Plexiglas (acrylic) - it works MUCH better. I hate trying to silver acrylic. Lexan takes the silver pretty well by itself and even better if you rub it down with Wetting Agent and rinse that off first. The amount I don't know about printing on Lexan would fill several books.

[Lee Littlewood]

Okay Sarah, I bow to your real-world experience. It's just that Lexan scratches so easily. But it is more flexible than acrylic - can you bend it and have the silver not fall off?

(BTW, I googled "low surface energy plastic" and found a bunch of technical articles, mostly aimed at adhesives. There seem to be people who think that corona treatment oxidizes the surface, making it more 'wettable', and those who think that the corona or flame are producing ozone, which is what makes the surface change. And the auto painters (who are mostly working with ABS or something, molded into shapes) think that the heat is pulling the mold release to the surface where it can be wiped off. The "PChrome" automotive videos are cool, but they are putting down a primer first and then silvering over that - not something you could do with a clear object.

http://www.assemblymag.com/articles/862 ... y-plastics
http://www.pcn.org/Technical%20Notes%20-%20Corona.html
cheers...)

[Ismael Alvarado]

I wanted to post som videos of how graphite looks on a glossy surface, but seems this forum can´t view youtube..

here are all the videos I made so far..
http://youtu.be/MSFBj-VRJZ0

http://youtu.be/I7lGSSErTWQ

http://youtu.be/60XtR0OXl-s

http://youtu.be/Yj4E20iRxc8

http://youtu.be/07yteCTszzQ

http://youtu.be/E765IPwO-0Q

http://youtu.be/T-3c3WX2qmw

hope you like them

[erik winkler]

They all seem a bit mat on the video's.

[Ismael Alvarado]

its true.. but its because of the lighting, on the shade I can reflect myself. I guess that sinse its not a real metal and its very thin nature, direct light does not bounce as good as on the shade...

[Ismael Alvarado]

ok short video of me brush plating over a graphite powder(rubbed on to a plastic spoon) its possible to brush plate over it, but it seems it lacks durability, I think one could do better if graphite ink or graphite coatings

here is the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjxET8e7AKM

[Lee Littlewood]

On the Brush Plating video: Very good! I appreciated the way that only doing 1/2 of the spoon made it easier to see the final plating. Which was what, chrome?

I am guessing that you had one pole clipped to the spoon and the other pole inside the wet cloth? Very ingenious way to not use lots of solution.

[Bob Sauls]

you might like to try ClearShield by ClearStar it is a very clear uv coating for diggy prints. It is Water-based and it will also bond to oilbased hand lettered signs.
A year ago I carved some large fish hooks for a sign. I used gold mica powders on 1Shot fast size. Although I had been told that the powders would hold up outdoors I was skeptical. I coated one with Frog Juice as a protectant and it did drown the luster. I re-applied the mica and then coated with the ClearShield and got better results. Long story short it maybe worth an experiment.

[Ismael Alvarado]

On the Brush Plating video: Very good! I appreciated the way that only doing 1/2 of the spoon made it easier to see the final plating. Which was what, chrome?

I am guessing that you had one pole clipped to the spoon and the other pole inside the wet cloth? Very ingenious way to not use lots of solution.

the brush plating kit I used was from Caswell plating and its a plug and plate CopyChrome kit(nickel/tungstene alloy), I have better results if I just electroplate it.. I was just curious about brush plating it

you might like to try ClearShield by ClearStar it is a very clear uv coating for diggy prints. It is Water-based and it will also bond to oilbased hand lettered signs.
A year ago I carved some large fish hooks for a sign. I used gold mica powders on 1Shot fast size. Although I had been told that the powders would hold up outdoors I was skeptical. I coated one with Frog Juice as a protectant and it did drown the luster. I re-applied the mica and then coated with the ClearShield and got better results. Long story short it maybe worth an experiment.

thanks for the help, I´ll do my research now...