Note: This post from Jan. 2004, sparked numerous additional threads on the subject. Use the Forum's Search feature to find additional glue chip threads
Posted by Mike Jackson on January 30, 2004
Pat MackleA little history first:
Back in about 1988 or so, we hosted a Totem Heads meeting out here in Jackson Hole. As a group, we carved a nice looking Totem Pole. The small group, including Butler, Glawson, Weber, Swormstedt, Anderson, and a bunch more assembled here. On a quick tour, I took them to the Wort Hotel downtown to see this piece of glass.
Many of the people stared at the glass, scratching their heads, wondering how this piece was done. Rick seemed to give us the impression he at least thought he knew how to do it, but his explanation never really made sense or sunk in.
In this piece, there is clear glass and regular etching. Then, similar to what Larry posted earlier, it has chipping going right up to the etching. There are four glass pieces, all identical except for the normal variations in chipping, and they are all EXTREMELY accurate. There is not even any of the normal human fluctuation that you might see with hand cut stencils.
I've thought about these pieces quite a bit, and I still don't know how to do it. Normally when working backwards in glass, you do the deepest etching first, the remove a little more until the last depth is blasted last. The little thin etched outlines around the chipped areas is only about 3/32" thick. so there isn't much area to work with, if trying to reapply stencil and I think the depression and ridge would cause some problems. Again, the registration is way to precise to think they came back in with a second complete setncil to do the chipping....nor does it seem very feasible to come back in and put a new stencil just over the chipped areas.
After Larry's post from yesterday, I thought I'd grab the camera and snap a few photos. The doors have been moved to the restaurant. The manager opened the doors for me so I could get a good shot from either side. Check out the Wort when you are in town!
If someone has the solution, I'm interested in hearing it. If you post it, be prepared for a few "yes, butts....."
Mike Jackson
Mike JacksonMike,
The screen printed line work was first deep blasted, then the areas to be chipped were peeled and frosted for chipping. Then all the panel was cleaned, Contact roll applied and cut by tracing around the deep etched grooves with an X-acto.
Any little glue that creeped under the Contact couldn't chip because it never got dry enough (being covered by the Contact paper.) By the way these were done over and over again with the same recycled glue.
Pat
Raymond ChapmanHi Pat,
Okay, I think I need to do a test piece now. Do you have a preference now on contact paper? You said it isn't as good as it used to be. Just curious of the current best product. We have some clear enamel receptive vinyl here that would probably work okay, but be quite expensive compared to contact paper.
Also, knowing these pieces are roughly 9" wide by 5' tall, I have to wonder how big your refrigerator must be? Right now, I have one right ouside my door that is probably 5 states big, but in the summer, it goes away.
Mike
One of the times I was in Jackson Hole, Mike took me to see this glass. He just pointed it out and then asked, "Do you notice anything different?"
My only comment was "How did they do that?". At that time neither Mike or I could figure it out.
Like Mike says - its a small world.
Gary Godby
Mike JacksonAt first glance...I would say to use a hypodermic needle filled with asphaltum or even "Spraylat" . Ride the needle along the groove until it leveled out even with the etched area, then pour the glue up to the protected line.
Just a wild wild guess
Dave SmithGary,
That was my only thought all along. I figured they left the stencil on after they did the deep cuts and the light frost on the areas to be chipped. Then they might have run a brush with asphaltum down in the grooves...you wouldn't have to be too careful except on the edge against the chipped areas.
Asphaltum is a messy material if you have to dip and clean large panels, so figuring it out WITHOUT asphaltum would have been a good goal. At the time Rick was out at the Totem Heads meeting, he hadn't figured out the Asphaltum steps used by Rawson and Evans yet. I gave him a can of Asphaltum I got from Steven Parrish which still had a Sherwin Williams label on it. He said later that the can of asphaltum was a key link he had been trying to track down and it finally clicked.
As it turns out, Pat Mackle did these panels and outlined exactly how he did them 30 years ago. Wow, what a small world!
Mike Jackson
Pat MackleMike
Shot in the dark here! Could they have deep etched the scroll work,then striped off the areas left for the next etch,placed the glass dead flat ready for chipping, pour on the glue very carefully so it find's it'own level and creates surface tension on the edge's. Then If there's any glue over the edge just wipe away or prior to pouring the glue ashaltum the deep etch.
Is there any overchipping?
Dave
Mike Jackson - More questions - Another photoHi Mike,
I did those door patterns for 3D door out of San Diego around 50 - 100 at a time in the late "70s. I still have some of the original patterns. They were originally done by a guy in New Port Beach, Ca. I'm not sure what your question was exactly. I did them in production using a silk screen sand blast stencil process I invented in my garage. I called it formula "605" because I concocted it in my head while driving up the 605 freeway. I mixed it up when I got home and it worked like a dream.
On the panels the line around the chipping was etched deep. This helped control the chip line.
This was the sequence.
Do stencil process and sand blast. Strip and clean.
Apply clear contact. (Contact paper was better then than it is nowadays)
Use deep etched outline to trace cut and remove Contact from areas to be chipped.
Use squeegee to float glue over entire pattern area.
After glue gelled, place panel in refrigerator to further chill the glue, cut and roll excess glue off Contact covered areas (like Teflon) using X-acto and return this gelled glue back to glue pot to be used again (saved a lot of glue and time this way) Any glue that creeped under the Contact I learned to ignore as it wouldn't chip because it couldn't dry. The second chip was done the same, squeegeeing another application of glue over the existing Contact paper and so on.
It was a very profitable product, especially since I was working out of an apartment/garage that was only $85.00 mo. Those were some good ol' days!!
Pat
Footnote: This is strange- Lately I had a couple of calls from sign companies telling me that they searched everywhere to find someone to match older glass signage that has come to them and that someone said to contact me as a last resort. To my amazement and theirs I have been able to recall the patterns, colors and even found the original films upstairs in the shop attic. Old age is really becoming interesting!!
Hi Pat,
I think I get most of it!
Here are a few questions to clear it up for me. These are ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL pieces, by the way!
#1: After you etch in the deeper cuts, you removed the stencil from the areas that were going to be chipped and "frosted" the areas prior to peeling the stencil. Right?
1B: So, the accuracy of the deep cuts were pretty much a direct result of the accurate and clean screen printed stencils? No hand cutting needed on the first round of stencils...creating perfect panels. Right?
2: On the application of the clear Contact paper, you probably covered the entire glass on these panels, but it wouldn't really be necessary...just enough to cover the areas you were going to chip, allowing for some slop. You would run the X-acto knife along the inside edge of the deep blast (these are not really that deep but do have a small edge)and peel. I got that part. But then, after refrigerating the glue and removing all the excess off the contact paper, you mention you did not worry about any glue that might have slipped down into the grooves. You say "it couldn't dry". I am missing something here. Why couldn't it dry?
3: Did you usually chip the chipped areas twice? These all have nice, consistent chips.
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After writing all my questions, I think I have it down now, with the exception of wondering why the glue the slipped into the deeper etched areas couldn't or wouldn't chip.
I included a larger section of the glass. It is much to hard to photograph with poor lighting and inconsistent backdrop. Photoshop saved the day here!
Mike Jackson
Denver Chapter of the Letterheads