Clear Over Gold Leaf Window

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Posted by Raymond Chapman on May 23, 2003

I have to letter several windows for a new Harley-Davidson dealership and they want everything hand painted (read "no-vinyl"). They want the main window done in gold leaf. Since the glass is heavily tinted I will have to do a surface job on the outside of the glass. This window will be cleaned frequently - probably with a squeege.

So, all you gold leaf sign gods out there, what should I use to clear the gold? I know, I know, it looks better left natural, but this will have to be an exception. The new building costs $7 million and they want something nice. Sounds like music to my ears!

Of course, I don't have the job yet. But I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks in advance for the advice. Remember, this is Texas with lots of heat. Luckily, the window will only receive sun in the early morning.

Cam Bortz

If the glass is tinted with interior plastic tinting, such as used on auto glass, here's a thought:
Using a pattern or mask of the image, cut through the tint with a knife, then clean the exposed glass and gild on the inside. My reaction to exterior gilding is that no clear will hold up long to frequent, repeated squeegee washings. A client actually willing to pay for genuine glass gold is too rare to risk being discouraged by a premature failure.

John Grenier

In reading the posts a question occurs to me that is the gold applied with gelatin size like reverse glass? Or even that two part german size? And then the clear over techniques?
John

Raymond Chapman

In this situation the gold will be placed on the outside of the glass in the same manner as other surfaces - with an oil size, either fast or slow drying. The size is like a varnish that attaches the gold to the surface.

The gelatin size is used for application of gold inside the glass in order not to have a layer of varnish between the glass and the gold - hence for brilliance. The gold has to be backed up with something that will protect it from the elements since the gold is exposed and would wash off easily as the glass is cleaned.

I'm not familiar with a two part german size

.

D. Bernhardt - Just a thought

It would in fact be possible to water gild on the outside if you wanted. Just gelatin size and gild as usual...then over paint with asphaltum (yes...that stuff again) and clean up the excess as usual...NEXT which is the secret...wash off asphaltum with laquer thinner and varsol...will leave the gold intact...outline and do whatever. Of course we,re still back at an exterior grade varnish that will hold up down there. Also Ray....you can count me in for a Butler workshop...was just too darn busy to get to Denver this last one.

P.S.
Should have read all the posted comments first...can see a few that allude to this same method.

Carol

Raymond,
If this is a very expensive new construction, could you convince them to install yet another sheet of glass into that window frame that has the tinted glass? You could gild on the inside of that glass before installation and not have to clear on top of the gold. I can't imagine anything that will hold up to washing as well as to your weather. The tinted glass could give a nice background to the burnish gild.
Sounds like it could be a fun job (to look at after all the headachesof producing it are forgotten).

C.

Mike Jackson - Tinted windows and an extra layer

Carol,
Texas might be different, but around here, if you put one layer of glass in front of another layer of glass (even with spacers), you will get sweating between the two layers in the winter. Thermal glass is basically that, but they have created a vacuum between the two sheets.

Mike

Rick Sacks - Tinted windows and an extra layer

And in the summer the gold would be in an oven! Can you imagine how hot it would get between the two pieces of glass? There would need to be a big air space with vents and perhaps a fan, but yes, this could work, but if Ray is needing to involve himself in a bidding process....perhaps we need to slow down before re-engineering the building.

John Grenier

Raymond,
I was thinking about the look of gold leaf when it is applied with water size on the inside of glass and it is, of course, mirror like. What I was wondering is can that same technique be used on the outside of glass and then cleared over with any success? Somebody may have already tried it. Nearly all of my experience is surface gilding. I have used gelatin size on shiney smooth varnished mahogany and achieved a mirror finish and then outlined, cleared and finally cleaned the excess however a bit too labor intensive. And besides it starts to look like mirror vinyl instead of leaf, too darn smooth. On most of the boat I do there will be a final coat of varnish over the lettering anyway.
Geez sounds like I talked myself right out of it anyway.
John

Rick Sacks

There have been a few times that I needed to gild a door and have it show gold on both sides. I used some King Kole black mixed with rubbing varnish to back up the gold. Cleaned the surplus gold and got it looking right and then with some laquer thinner on a wad of cotton, I wiped off the black and it didn't harm the gold. Then I cleared it. Rick Glawson liked that German size that is water based (one part) and gives a mirror gild for surface work. He said some of the stripers were using it on vehicles and it was holding up fine. Instacol is what it's called. Looks like watered down white glue.

Danny Busselle

Hello to all. Sepp in New York, there Lettering outdoors has been done in Insta col for Years. If I can Make a Meet in Southern California I will Bring some Insta col and demo it for all to see. Simply Great Stuff. Try it, you may like it. As I said I just got through useing 1,500 leaves of sose ,white amd 22k it's all Mirrored then tinted with candy colors. Very Brite. But it's on a Fair Ground Organ.

Barbara Schilling - Can you post a link to the pictures or ask Mike J. to post?

Have never heard of Instacol or the process described. Thirsty for more!

Danny Busselle

Don't know how to post a picture here. But I can Email you. O.K.?

Danny Busselle

InSta Col is a two part german size that I have very good results with. you put on Base and sometime within a year. You can use the jack or gilders liquer is put on over the base . As it disapates, you can start gilding the suface. This produces a Mirror gild on the surface. I just completed a "whirlitzer 105 and a Ruth Fair ground Organ" 3 Packs of Gold leaf were used and turned out vwery well. takes a little patience, with your self. avaliable at http://www.seppleaf.com/

Robare M. Novou

I got a sample of the stuff from the folks at sepp. I was told it had a shelf life of a year.
When I did get up the nerve to use it, it was two years later...I got spotty results...you know, matte and bright spots on the finials that I coated with the stuff. I have seen it used with great success on some large carved works of signage art....They must have used it before it went sour.

Robare M. Novou

Mike Jackson

Hi Rick,
I have a bottle of the instacol size here, but have never really tried it. From what I can see, it looks like thinned down Elmers glue. It doesn't seem to me that would hand letter well on a window. Rick used it when gilding architectural pieces like pedistal bases where you coated the entire surface. Ever letter with it on glass? Second, I have to assume the activator eventually cures the size, but is it rated for outdoor use? It looks water based to me.

I'm not knocking the product...just curious to hear back from people who have used it.

Mike Jackson

Rick Sacks - Instacol?

I've used it successfully outside on carved coves and ornaments. I find it too bright to use on lettering. I've never tried lettering with it, and if needed, I'd cut a mask and apply the two coats. The activator is good for a couple days, but I usually gild a few hours after activating. Rick said that many folks were striping with it. Perhaps it's time to start asking Lola some of the technical questions and thereby help her to move on past the pain?

D. Bernhardt

The boss used to use instacol for copper leaf...wish I had paid more attention!

John Grenier

Mike,
I have the two bottles Instacol on my shelf as well, the guy in New York sold it to me, Art Essentials. Anyway, it seems I've never wanted to use it on a job without knowing more. For the bucks it's usually better to go with what you know.
Looking for a review of the product. It was a little pricey as I recall.
John

Barbara Schilling

Raymond, I have a job just like that at a local Bail Bond office. It was done at least 10 years ago, and still looks perfect. One window faces north and one window faces west. I used my "encapsulated surface gilding" technique like I use for Fire Trucks. The gild is done on clear vinyl in the typical surface gild manner. Then the job is cleared with Clear Overcoat Varnish. Then I put down a layer of clear tedlar (UV and Chemical resistant). Next hand cut out the copy, leaving a "glowline" of the clear vinyl about 1/10 inch. All of this is done in the studio. Install it at the job site on the outside of the windows just as if you were doing a truck lettering job or something. Call me if you are confused. Good Luck.

Raymond Chapman

Barbara, you should know me by now...I'm always confused.

I know about Tedlar - it's the clear that SignGold uses, but the question is: Where do you get it? Also, what is the purpose of clear overcoat varnish if you are going to put tedlar over everything?

What type of clear vinyl do you use? I know about Gerber's enamel receptive clear, but haven't used any in several years. Can you steer me in the right direction as to brand?

I like the idea of using Tedlar over the gold because it is almost bullet proof.

And thanks to all who have helped me out. It's great to be a part of the "family".

Barbara Schilling

Hi Raymond,
Sorry for the delay in response, but yesterday was a HOLIDAY! We took the kids out to a big celebration at Harriet Island Park in St. Paul. 60,000 people just lounging in the park! Best fireworks I've ever seen.

Tedlar: It is the same product as the Gerber UV Guard film, but Gerber charges too much and so does SignGold. Tedlar is a trademark name for a 1 mil clear film made by Dupont. The difference is in the type of adhesive and liners added by the distributor. Start calling around to the people selling laminating films and other graphic films. Ask SPECIFICALLY for TEDLAR, NOT Teflon, which is another Dupont film. Last time I found it at a local company called AdHue Graphics. www.adhue.com

Clear Overcoat Varnish: Protects the gold while normal additional steps are being done such as washing away excess gold, touching up outlines, etc. Also, protects gold when squeegeeing down the Tedlar film. I noticed I got squeegee streaks in the surface when I did not clear coat b4 tedlar.

Call or email if still confused.
Barb

Barbara Schilling

Oops - missed that question
I have used Gerber Enamel Receptive Clear and Avery Clear. Any High performance clear with crystal clear adhesive should be fine. Either don't prep the vinyl or only lightly tack it off, or the gold will stick where you don't want it.

Danny Busselle

Raymond I just remenbered. You Must Use the Same Hardner or Catilist in all Paint used. This will prevent wrinkling or pruning. I use eye droper and add 3 drops to a 1oz., of paint. this is Approx 30 to 40 minutes of brush time to give time for outlining, Ect. Depends on how HOT it is. Make test.

Danny Busselle

Hi Raymond. I used PPG auto Clear w/ Catalist or Hardner in it. Masked whole area and sprayed it with a DelVilbis 502a Touch up Gun. In Seal Beach Calif. 1 Block from Beach and it has Lasted. "Ricks" Test area on Trailer Imron/frog /One that started with the Ltr "B" butron or something. You only need 3mil of clear.