Posted by Lee Littlewood on April 21, 2003
Larry WhiteThere is a lot of interest in acid etching on glass. Did Rick have any health and safety info? The guy who told me about HF was very cautious and told me some truly hideous stories about hydroflouric acid - long term health and disfigurement problems. Note that Rick was working outdoors so fumes could blow away. Larry White, do you have any safety suggestions?
Signed: a mother hen
MSDS for Hydroflouric AcidBelow is a portion of the MSDS sheet for HF. The complete MSDS sheet can be accessed at the link below.
-LW
Hydrofluoric Acid, P.A. 48 to 51% HF Content ACROS96155
**** SECTION 1 - CHEMICAL PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION ****
MSDS Name: Hydrofluoric Acid, P.A. 48 to 51% HF Content
Catalog Numbers:
AC223330000, AC223330250, AC223335000
Synonyms:
Fluohydric Acid, Fluoric Acid, Hydrofluoric Acid Solution.
**** SECTION 3 - HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION ****
EMERGENCY OVERVIEW
Appearance: clear, colorless.
Danger! Harmful if inhaled. Corrosive. Toxic. May cause kidney
damage. Causes severe eye and skin burns. Causes severe
digestive and respiratory tract burns. May cause skeletal
abnormalities. Target Organs: Kidneys, skeletal structures.
Potential Health Effects
Eye:
Contact with liquid or vapor causes severe burns and possible
irreversible eye damage.
Skin:
May be fatal if absorbed through the skin. Causes severe burns with
delayed tissue destruction. Substance is rapidly absorbed through
the skin. Penetration may continue for several days. Causes severe
tissue necrosis and bone destruction.
Ingestion:
Causes severe digestive tract burns with abdominal pain, vomiting,
and possible death. May cause systemic toxic effects on the heart,
liver, and kidneys. Ingestion of large amounts of fluoride may
include salivation, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, fever, labored
breathing. Inorganic fluorides can be harmful. Acute exposure to
fluorine compounds can lead to digestive tract burns, and abdominal
pain. Exposure to fluoride compounds can result in systemic toxic
effects on the heart, liver, and kidneys. It may also deplete
calcium levels in the body leading to hypocalcemia and death.
Contains fluoride. Human fatalities have been reported from acute
poisoning. Fluoride can reduce calcium levels leading to fatal
hypocalcemia.
Inhalation:
Harmful if inhaled. May cause severe irritation of the upper
respiratory tract with pain, burns, and inflammation. May cause
pulmonary edema and severe respiratory disturbances. Depletes calcium
levels in the body which can lead to hypocalcemia and death.
Chronic:
Chronic inhalation and ingestion may cause fluorosis with skeletal
abnormalities. Repeated inhalation may cause chronic bronchitis.
Prolonged or repeated exposure may cause permanent bone structure
abnormalities. Chronic exposure to fluoride compounds may cause
systemic toxicity.
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/dtSe ... sds%2ehtml
Lee L
Larry White - Calcium Gluconate GelLarry, that's a great post. Definitely something to print and keep handy. Sometimes "federalese jargon" really gets your attention: I particularly like, "Penetration may continue for several days" - like a science fiction movie. Yuk.
I wonder where to get the calcium gluconate gel they mention for skin contact.
I never knew that HF reacted with metals! Rick always used popsicle stick paddles to mix with and so we did too.
Mike JacksonI just went over to the local lab store and got a pint of HF. They also had the calcium gluconate gel. I bought some, it's kinda expensive, but if I got some HF on me and I didn't have any and my bones were being eaten away... well it'd appear cheap (no hind sight, thanks). The gal at the store said that people that use HF regularly put some of the CGG on their hands before they put their gloves on. Evidently the HF has a mind of its own and seeks out calcium to chew on. It chews on the gel rather than heading straight for your skeleton. (One should still seek medical attension if ANY contact is made.) I was thinking about all this stuff last night at 3 in the morning. ...they told me it was decaf....
The lab supply also had "watch faces" from 1" up to 8" in 1/2" increments. They also had some glass beads at various sizes from salt size to 1/8", they might be cool for some letter center or something.
Raymond ChapmanLarry,
Besides the gloves, goggles and other safety equipment, I also rubbed on a layer of vasoline jelly on my arms and hands. Seems Rick mentioned doing it. The theory is the petroleum jelly would repel any water based acid, possibly long enough to let you rinse it off before it begins on your skin.
There has been a lot of interest in the acid techniques on this BB in the past couple of weeks. I sincerely hope people heed all warnings if they even consider trying it. Yes, I remember those projects all over the place at the conclaves. My experience was with the 49% solution and the pieces used at the conclaves were probably less than 15%. I can't remember the saturation off the top of my headl...seems more like it was 10% bath. Rick was a little more easy going handling the acid than I am. He carried around pieces loaded with acid while still wearing his sandals. Not me!
Buying some of the CGG is probably a good investment.
Mike Jackson
Mike JacksonI think I'll stick with vinyl. It sticks with me.
Larry WhiteHi Larry,
When I had my old shop, I required each employee to read the safety sheets for each industrial tool (table saw, joiner, radial arm saw, band saw, routers, and so forth), then sign the front cover of the booklet. The guy we hired had quite a bit of woodoworking experience already, but that gave me the extra back up information if something did go wrong and I had a worker's comp claim.
I think it would be a similar good idea to make everyone read those two documents and then sign at the bottom before letting them get near the hydroflouric acid at a meeting, seminar, or conclave. At this point, I think every post that mentions acid etching should also include a reference to those two sheets. When I get time, I think I will add them permanently to this site.
Thanks for looking them up and making them available to everyone.
Mike Jackson
Raymond ChapmanThat's a good idea Mike. I'd hate to hear of someone getting injured from acid etching. Especially if trying it off an overview instruction from this sight (like mine).
I also like your idea of circulating the warnings at any meeting where this stuff is to be used.
I remember at one conclave the acid was being poured a bit too freely on an acid embossing group project. I'm not so sure Rick was aware of what was going on. I stayed the heck away. There were projects, with pools of acid on them, balanced on picnic benches. And you know there were plenty of people there wondering what the cherry kool-aid was for. That was a disaster ready to happen. After that Rick was very tenative to break out the acid, but he would late at night after the masses had thinned out. I'm glad nothing bad ever happened.
Discussions on the cautions and handling should definately preceed any discussions on technique.
-LW
Mike Jackson - Advantages / DisadvantagesConsidering the dangerious nature of acid etching, what is the advangage of using it over sand blasting?
I really like the look of acid etching, but I have enough problems already.
I can probably add a few comments on this one.
DISADVANTAGES of using acid:
1. Dangerous! You can get burned and the fumes are very bad for you.
2. Cleaning up the asphaltum resists (if used) is messy.
3. Acid will find ANY pin hole in the resist and create a nice little divet. You must also be careful of overcuts in stencil. The acid will find every one of them.
ADVANTAGES of acid over Glue Chipping:
1. The overall process "can" be faster.
2. Since no blasting is needed, acid resists "can" be silk screened--thus allowing for some very intricate work.
3. If gilding over the embossed areas, water gilding and silvering/Angel gilding is usually easier. You get lousy results going over etched areas of glass unless you seal it well prior to water gilding. Frosting is not an option at all for solution gilding. Gilding over acid embossed areas usually requires only two water gilds. Gilding over glue chipped areas usually takes two water gilds and a final back up of quick size and surface leaf.
4. You can usually anticipate results from job to job and are not affected by the weather. Chipping can be finicky and subject to climate changes, temperature and so forth.
5. With a little pre-planning, you can occasionally limit areas that need to be masked to small areas, especially when using mica in the form of a thick paste.
6. Overall, there are probably more "trick" techniques you can do with acid. The tempera paint Larry mentioned is one example, along with mica flakes, washers, doilies, BB's and so forth.
I could probably think of more, but this might get you started thinking about the technique. Take a class or seminar before trying them. Remember, ACID IS DANGEROUS.
Mike Jackson
Larry White
Robert BeverlyAcid etching will leave the glass clear and you can water gild a mirror finish over it. Sandblasted glass (typically depth carved) will require a sealer and when gilded over will have a surface gilded appearance. Both techniques have their place, but one can't really substitute the other.
-LW
Larry
Mike Jackson - Silvering SuppliesI appreciate all of this info and I also appreciate the concerns posted over the danger aspects of such a process....BUT...as you said, it has a unique appearance and application and I for one am very interested in knowing it capabilites and possibilities. I just hope the danger aspects of processes like this will not slow down the sharing of information...I know that Rick would have shared it with me!
So...what other processes out there are still to be uncovered?...
OH...mica flakes mentioned...any in particular and I sure would appreciate your source on silvering materials!!!
Peacock LabsThere is a link on the Supply List to:
Elite Finishing Supplies
Silvering and Mirroring supplies and equipment, kits, and photos
121-123 East Santa Fe Ave. P. O. Box 623 Toluca, IL. 61369
Telephone: 800-338-9562 Fax: 815-452-2604
Also, I am almost 100% positive Rick bought all his Silvering supplies from Peacock Labs in PA. Their link is below. You might end up needing to buy more supplies than you really want if you go to them.
Mike Jackson
http://www.peacocklabs.com/products.htm
Robert Beverly
Mike JacksonMike
I had checked your link for mirroring before and I guess I strayed away because of their use of a spray system for application. Maybe one day, my volumn will justify it but right now, I am looking to emulate that which I am comfortable with and that is the pour method!
Thanks for the source and your safety concerns in the acid area...I sure hope one day we can get ya down to Texas to demonstrate these method's!
Hi Robert,
I bought one of those two part sprayers, just like most of the people who saw it done at first. The chemicals are exactly the same. You can use a Prevail sprayer for small, upright jobs. The pour method requires the glass to be perfectly horizontal, so the execution depends on the nature of the glass surface.
Good luck,
Mike Jackson
Lee Littlewood
I've had good results with hand spray bottles, the kind you use for Windex. I actually buy the "high volume" kind from a janitor supply house, but it's the same mechanism - cheap and portable. I like to spray my first coat of silver on and either 1) keep spraying (about 15 seconds between floods), or 2) then lay glass down. When you're doing it on site of course you have to spray, but even in shop I think you get a faster first coat on, When I've poured it I've gotten "ripple lines" where the liquid first went on, and they actually showed up at the end (!). Pouring uses a lot less material, you can let the liquid sit until it's used up (usually shows a brown scum) and then dump and re-pour fresh solution until you're happy. I like to go until a lightbulb is barely visible through the silver. It is possible to go too far, but not as touchy as angel gild. Having everything warm helps - when I'm on site I'll put my sprayers in a bucket of hot water while I set up.
Try spraying, you'll like it, especially for small pieces.
Robert Beverly
Lee
Mike JacksonThanks for the tips!
I have the complete instructions from Rick on his process and have further contacted his supplier of silvering...SO I AM A HAPPY CAMPER!...
I can post these notes to you Mike if they are something worthy of inclusion!
Tim CoxRobert,
I have two large documents from Rick about Angel Gilding instructions and also Silvering instructions. Kimberly volunteered to retype them for me, but I haven't had a chance to fax the sheets to her. The Silvering instructions are shorter, of course.
If you feel like typing them out, you can send me the text document and save a step or two.
Thanks,
Mike Jackson
Larry WhiteMike
Hi, I would love to get the info on silvering that Rick gave you. Also I would greatly appreciate any other "Old Timey" info.!
I am trying to teach myself many of the "Old Ways" (Glue Chipping, Surface Gilding, Silvering, and any other cool old methods. If you could steer me in the right direction It would be great. I airbrush a great deal and want to incorporate these things to what I do.
Thanks in advance,
Tim Cox
Wild Air Studios
816-650-2208
wildair_@hotmail.com
RoderickThanks Lee for bringing up the safety aspect of working with acid. I typically handle it as if it was nitro. I wear protective clothing, protective gloves, and a resporator and safety glasses. I've heard the creepy stories and am very cautious. I do all my work in spray booth with a directional air flow. I advise anyone interested in acid etching to first observe the process from someone that knows what they're doing.
It's best to know all the hazards of the products we work with. I've made that a point. But it might be my oversight that all others do too. Thanks for bringing up the safety aspect.
-LW
Mike JacksonMy dad told me that they used to use it at Knotts berry farm to do the pop corn windows using bees wax as a resist.I think they that the were happy when they descovered sandblast mask (for headstones) and didn't have to use the acid.As for the safety issues working outside with proper attire ie full face mask with resperator full spray suit and chemical gloves would take care of and health concerns.Also remember to wash you hands before eating.Yes mother.Check out this book ,it's about acid finishes on metal but it gives you a good idea of the danger of chemicals"The coloring,bronzing and patination of metals" by richard hughes and michael rowe craftcouncil.
Roderick
Lee,
Thanks for your post. I agree. This stuff is VERY DANGEROUS. I am personally hesitant to get too much information in front of people who might not take the caution warnings to heart.
At on of our little meetings, we did some acid etching in the back room. We added red food coloring to all the acid to help identify it...a good idea and well worth the effort. However, at the end of the evening, I noticed the lid off the 49% solution bottle and the little white cardboard "cap liner" next to the lid. I picked up the liner, pushed it back up inside the plastic lid and screwed it back on. It was fairly innocent. However, I realized I has some moisture on the tip of my finger from pushing the liner back inside, so I immediately headed for the sink, followed by looking in the first aid cabinet for the acid neutralizer. After a little while, my finger started buzzing, then stinging, then hurting and finally throbbing. If was after hours on Saturday night. The little emerga-care office was closed so my next option was the emergency room at the hospital. I opted to go back to the shop and weather the storm. It throbbed all night but lessened by the morning. Eventually, I had a nice blister at the end of my finger, but more importantly, I had learned first hand not to take the stuff lightly.
I have been told (by Rick) that the standard procedure for stopping an acid burn is to insert a needle with neutralizing chemicals in the body "ahead" of the acid to neutralize it as it works its way towards the bone. It's not a pretty sounding picture.
By the time the 49% solution is diluted to about 10%, it is much less dangerous, but it can still hurt you. The fumes are dangerous, as Lee mentioned. If people are going to handle the acid, I'd suggest taking a seminar, read a bunch about safety issues, neutralization chemicals and techniques, and buy all the proper gloves, goggles, and aprons.
Be informed and be prepared!
Mike Jackson
Denver Chapter of the Letterheads