Merry Christmas (and some nice vintage images to boot!)

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:27 pm

A big thanks to everyone who has helped me with my curiousity.

http://www.cigarnexus.com/nationalcigar ... index.html

Perhaps one of these images might be usefull to one of you during the upcoming holidays.

Googling the phrase "Compliments of the Season" brings up some nice period style images.

Merry Christmas Everyone.

DAVE SMITH · Post by **DAVE SMITH** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:23 am

Merry Christmas to you and your family Kelly and everyone else that looks into this site.

from

Dave Smith

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:09 pm

and a Merry Christmas also from one of the Canadians enjoying warm temperatures and no snow. Also a quick aside...thats a beautiful piece..."compliments of the season" and am willing to bet dollars to donuts it's by a fella named Ames.

Patrick Mackle · Post by **Patrick Mackle** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:41 pm

NICE card Kelly,
Merry Christmas to all of us, what a GREAT group- and how lucky we are to share and enjoy our talents and knowledge and personalities.
Best wishes,
Pat and Peggy

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:31 pm

It is a pretty piece isn't it

If I have time this Christmas I may paint a 4 foot panel of it to hang on the side of my shop next year.
I think you owe me a trip to Tim Hortons, Doug, because the front page of the pamphlet has a name on it.
"A Hoen & Co. Richmond Va." or was his first name Ames?

I love the treatment of the date on this one.

I'll second you on that emotion Pat.

Wayne Osborne · Post by **Wayne Osborne** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:37 pm

A very Merry Christmas to one and all.

( Hey Kelly- great Cards!- What stunning glass pieces they would make!

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:07 pm

Yes, let me also with the best of Holiday Greetings to all. That should cover me up until after new year's day. I am also looking forward the winter solstice and the promise of longer days for the following six months.

Those are awfully nice plates. I can see where Doug Bernhardt thought they might be from one of the Ames books or plates. They are quite similar.

Mike Jackson

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:41 pm

Okay...Tims it is, although this way Country Style is still a better cup of coffee. BUT...before I give in completely I'll bring home an Ames piece and show you why I thought so. So...are you a Double Double?

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:05 am

I tried searching here and on Google with no luck, so I'll make you a deal Doug, you email me or post some Ames "pretties" so I can see for myself and I'll buy the coffee. How will I know you? Will you be the guy with paint on his forehead?

I love this kind of stuff, I have a pretty nice morgue built up. I really like J.Walter Thompson Co. Images.
I'm not sure about the "legality" of these types of images I've downloaded from the net. Is it okay to share them? I suspect that once it is on the internet it is pretty much open game, but I don't want to cause trouble for the site.
Here's one I plan on making into a glass piece that I can share. A relative has the original cabinet I photographed it from. It is in really lovely shape. His place is a smorg of wonderful old elements. But first I have to go there with my camera.

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:05 pm

Kelly,
Technically, it is 100% illegal to "take" a photograph from a site without permission from the site and from the photographer. The photographer has the rights to the photo until they sell or assign the rights.

With that said, most Internet photos are very small in file size and have limited value past reference materials. The exception might be when someone captures a bunch of images and then tries to sell those images as backgrounds or screen savers. Photos on eBay are normally not of much of a concern since the seller is trying to get rid of the piece. When I needed to use a photo for a web site from an eBay auction, I always write the seller and ask permission. They almost always say yes.

To be really safe, the best way to post a photo here would be to create a link directly to the image on the Internet, vs downloading the image to your computer, uploading to a new server and creating a link to that one. In this scenario, you are simply linking to their photo and not stealing it. Of course, if they remove it, the link will be broken.

You simply have to ask yourself if you would be offended to see a photo you took being used on another site without the person asking? You would probably say yes to most images, but maybe it is a photo of your Grandmother or one of your kids and really don't want to see it used without your permission. Of course, you might be browsing another sign shop site and see a photo of a sign YOU did in their portfolio section. Would that bother you?

In the first two examples you posted above, you are simply showing a photo or scan of some public domain work. The work itself is public domain, but the scan or photo still belongs to the person who took the time to make it. Some universities and institutions are publically funded and display historical images on their sites. You have to read the fine print on their sites, but some will allow you to use them freely. Others require links back to their site or embedded acknowledgments. Almost ALL sites include some sort of copyright or ownership statement, suggesting all text, photos, graphics and images on the site are their property and cannot be used without permission or compensation.

http://www.princetonhistory.org/polImag ... Code=small
This is a link to a page with a photo on the Princeton History site.

This one links directly to the image.

Mike Jackson

Ron Berlier · Post by **Ron Berlier** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:27 pm

I too, along with Carolyn, would like to extend to all the very best of the Christmas Season and a very prosperious New Year. In addition, we hope that "Santa" fullfills all your Christmas wishes.

Larry White · Post by **Larry White** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:07 pm

Greetings from Machine! Wishing everybody a nice holiday and a not so prosperous new year, so you'll have more time for personal projects and time to do the things you like to do!

-LW

Dan Seese · Post by **Dan Seese** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:27 pm

We're socked-in with a blizzard here in Ft. Collins, Colorado. Glad I didn't need to get out into it today. No sign of it letting up. So, Doug, enjoy your warm weather. I'm actually enjoying this snow as I sit by the fire sipping rum & egg nog.
I would have put my money on Ames as well. Check out Ames' Compendium of Practical and Ornamental Penmanship, Kelly. I picked one up at Rick's place years ago.
Merry Christmas, my friends.

Dan

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:07 pm

Thanks for clarifying that Mike. I guess I did things the safe way then, as the images I posted are links to Duke University's Scriptorium Digital Library.
As far as seeing a sign I made on someone elses site....well, I suppose depending on whose site I saw it on that might be the biggest form of flattery. But no I wouldn't like it, however I landed my biggest ongoing client from a situation somewhat similar to that. Lemons to lemonade.

I just found a link to an Ames' Guide to Self Instruction in Practical and Artistic Penmanship I'm going to disagree with you three as to this looking like something done by Ames, perhaps rather someone trying to emulate his work. IMHO, Daniel Ames' work is very fluid and spontaneous, albeit lovely, the plate I posted looks very taughtly rendered and somewhat rigid in comparison.
The website I found that information on has a wealth of resources for anyone interested in "penmanship".
Part of their mission Statement is to "Preserve and share with others the rich tradition of American Penmanship."

IAMPETH embraces the full range of lettering arts - from historic illumination and gilding, to text lettering, engrossing, broad-edge and pointed pen scripts.

Isn't the internet incredible!

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:29 am

Hi Kelly,
The book you referenced was one on basic penmanship and embellishing skills. There are plates similar to the one I scanned above found in other books. I believe that was what Doug was referencing. With the plate above, you can see some similarities.

The one below seems timely (also scanned from the same book).

Mike

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:04 pm

Yes, I can definitely see the similarities and where you are coming from. It's interesting to see that back then styles and ideas were "borrowed" from others. It must have been a lot more difficult to do though, because they didn't have the information highway at their fingertips that we do. I would think that "imitating" would have been much more pure as there would have been fewer influences. I wonder if the two illustrators attended the same school, if one perhaps apprenticed under the other of if they were from the same area. Interesting!

Larry White · Post by **Larry White** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:18 pm

I found this excerpt from the IAMPETH website quite interesting:

"The Art of Calligraphy has twice been killed stone dead by mechanical invention, and has twice found a new set of justifications. As an industry for the manual copying of texts, it was destroyed by the printing press. As an essential tool of commerce and finance and an evidence of gentility, it flourished for three centuries and was strangled by the typewriter. In its third and present lifetime, it stands with the fine arts, safe from any further technological threat."

The Times Literary Supplement, 1965

Although caligraphy has supposedly received it's recognition as an art form, the comuter has now taken it's toll on the art. Quite a few jobs that may have been done by hand in the not so distant past, have been created on the computer. Also, I've heard of caligraphy jobs being layed out on the computer, then traced by hand. Guess you don't have to concentrate on spelling and word spacing. ...ya, ya, ya, the computer as a tool...

Also, I wonder about the enduring strenth of the art form with a generation that may not possess the dedication and timely practice required to become a "master caligrapher". Especially with an art form that seems to have a dwindling marketplace. There will be the few that keep it alive, like us hand letterers. ...guess I'll go make another reverse glass sign... for my personal collection of course.

Dan Seese · Post by **Dan Seese** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:22 pm

Here is a bit of a rabbit trail but it is in response to Kelly's comments about apprenticeship and Larry's comments about calligraphy and doing work by hand. (By the way, that IAMPETH site is incredible.)
My youngest son just returned from 6 months in Japan. While there he studied shodÅ - the Japanese word for calligraphy - and brought back for me a couple of brushes and ink. He's been showing me some of the elementary strokes and techniques he learned in building the Chinese characters which shodÅ is based on. A great Chinese movie by one of my favorite directors, Zhang Yimou, is Hero. Besides being a rich, poetic ballet of color and movement, it integrates the art of calligraphy into the story-line depicting it as a life-long, disciplined craft and an expression of the inner person.
Here is a quote from the Japan Calligraphy Education Foundation:
"There are almost no example of even geniuses creating outstanding art without reference to the past traditions. In order to transcend the rules, one must study and master the techniques and follow the moral values of the teachers of the past. Respect the tradition, master it and find your self-expression within it; such has long been the teaching of the Kampo Ryu in ShodÅ."
That is a far cry from our contemporary mantra, which seems to be:
"Respond to the marketing trends and buy the latest computer at Best Buy. Then go online and download a free font. To express yourself, simply type in your words, distort, and then move on to the next diversion."
I admit that as a 21st century American, I prefer instant gratification to the life-long discipline of learning a craft, and I really like the ease and hitherto untapped capabilities afforded by my computer. But I shouldn't be cavalier about the potential negative effects of technology and lose the rooted character of hand lettering, hand calligraphy, hand-executed art. I'm thankful that I began to learn the trade in pre-computer days and therefore I have a grounding to take with me when I sit down at the computer which is not a part of the vocabulary of young people entering the trade today. And I want to be someone who is continuing to learn the craft.
That is part of why I love this trade and the people who post on this forum.
Well, the snow has quit for now and I've shoveled about 1/2 of my driveway. I'd better get back out there.
Dan

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:49 pm

Kelly,
I spent most of a year buying old letterheads, printers guides, and old books while working on the Centennial Collection of Panels and Ornaments. Besides Ames and whoever actually designed the images for the Hoen Company, there were lots and lots of similar letterheads all following a fairly rigid style around the 1880s. Lacking some of our high tech printing presses and reproduction techniques, various shades of gray were achieved through lines and cross hatching. Actually, a lot of it is illustrated within the old dollar bills and printed currency. Many had a stong, solid lettering zone, then ornamented with an abundance of fine, delicate line work as seen in all the examples above. As a blanket statement, I found so many examples of it that it would be fairly easy to say it was "the look of the day". Ames and Zanerian were two of the most popular calligraphy and penmanship books, but the were quite a few others.

Mike Jackson

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:56 pm

I think I should edit the title of this post...It has taken some really interesting turns in conversation.
Mike you had better not ever allow me into your library, you'll be dragging me away kicking and screaming like a rabid she cat!
Dan, I came into this "trade" backwards, as an artist I was often asked to do signs and I ended up starting with the plotter and vinyl. Particularily in the past five years I have developed a real passion for the old techniques and skills and I find myself hungry to learn as much as possible about the grass roots of this trade. Jim teases me about trying to learn by osmosis. Perhaps there is some truth in that, and though I may never "master" the techniques I'm sure going to learn as much as I can. In any case, what I'm getting at, is that in my case the computer is the vehicle which allows me access to this information. There are a lot of others, much younger than me that also have caught this passion. I think there will always be a few who will want to learn the old ways and I sincerly hope the chain will continue intact for another century.
Larry..."Also, I wonder about the enduring strenth of the art form with a generation that may not possess the dedication and timely practice required to become a "master caligrapher". "... true and sad, but keep making those reverse glass signs Bud, they serve as inspiration for "Keeping the Craft" alive.

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:53 pm

Well....what happens when I don't check in for a day or 2? Yes...thats the Ames feller that I think so Highly of. I brought home the book I have...my 'pooter is there/here....and Mike has posted a few things from his "Compendium" which I have had for too many years. Never-the-less I will scan a few other pages from this and send them to you Kelly. I have been having trouble with my upload software. What is most likley is that I don't know how to use it. Thanx for the well wishes Mr.Seese and wish everyone a fine Christmas Season!!

Tony Segale · Post by **Tony Segale** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:47 pm

Merry Christmas, Happy Boxing Day and Happy New Year to all...
been outta here for quite a few days lately,
scanned this post and seems all my fellow brothers and sisters all have the right attitude, and seem to have their minds set right on what needs to be done around here.
We all know that the handletterer and calligrapher will never let the craft fade or go away, that's hwat we're here for. And I am so happy about the computer, it seems to be one of my best referrals. During the last few weeks, I have received phone calls from several prospects out of a 50 -60 mile radius, calling the only name they have been referred to who still creates letters by hand.
Now, as Walter Brennan said in his famous TV show, "no brag, just fact", that's is where I'm coming from, and if those who are willing to learn, there's plenty of work for the craftsman available.(That TV show was 'the Guns of Will Sonnet' I believe).
So, Happy Holidays to us all, keep your skills profitable and at the ready,
and leave time for making things right.
and remember... 'easy, Frank, easy, the first thing a businessman needs to learn is to take things easy'

Merry Christmas (and some nice vintage images to boot!)

Merry Christmas (and some nice vintage images to boot!)

Merry Christmas

Ames of not?

Bandwagon....

White Christmas

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