proper order in glass work?

[Catharine C. Kennedy]

First step would be any blasting/carving of the glass- but at what point is silvering done: before or after any painting?
Thanks-

[Danny Baronian]

Cathrine,

try a search on key words such as silvering, chipping and painting, techniques you need information on. Look specifically for how to's by Larry White, Mike Jackson and Dave Smith.

There are numerous posts that answer your question well, with extensive photos.

To narrow down how to's by member name, go to members list, click on their profile, then find select all post's by (name) and hit return.

Danny

[Larry White]

In my execution, I typically proceed:

1) All glass surface alteration; sandcarving, glue chipping, acid work, etc.

2) Solution giding, which can be done over the whole panel, or over a vinyl mask. Inscriptions (or previous work) can be solution gilded over, but it's recommended to have them completely sealed over with asphaltum. I, personnally, don't like to risk solution gilding over previous work, except maybe when it comes to sandcarved work. It is difficult to remove solution gilded metals from the sandcarving.

3) Evaluate the remaing scope of work to determine the best sequence of application. I sometimes write an outline of the steps to be performed, so as not to do anything out of order.

You can see some of my approaches in these step-by-steps:
LaBelle Supreme
Hamilton Bank Note
Endeavour to Persevere
Rick Glawson Commemorative Sign

Previous topic discussion thread

-Larry

[Catharine C. Kennedy]

Thanks- I didn't know about silvering with a mask down!

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Catharine,
I think most of the complex projects you see are done by people who can visualize every single step, long before they start the first process. That doesn't come without a LOT of smaller baby steps that must be learned one at a time. My suggestion would be to start your learning process by concentrating on one aspect, such as screen printing, silvering, or etching, then start combining two or three processes into one project. By the time you have done enough of the smaller projects, you will eventually begin to understand which steps must be done before others and why. If you study any of Larry's projects, I believe you will see that he had a pre-game plan and then followed it.

Steven Parrish used an expression when talking about someone one time. It went something like this, "He knows a lot of tricks, but he doesn't know the trade". Most people will advise beginners that it is better to learn the trade first, then add the tricks. In attempting a complex project, you just about have to know both.

Your question is a good one because you will hear a few different ways to approach a project, but they will almost always depend on the specific project and the desired end results. Larry gave you some good guidelines.

Good luck, and have fun!
Mike Jackson

[Catharine C. Kennedy]

Thanks for the reminder, Mike- I often get myself in the middle of "too many moving parts"!

[Kent Smith]

I might add that every project has steps that you follow to completion, even with vinyl; design, cut, weed, mask, apply. I cannot over emphasize the concept of mastering each of the steps in the process, completely and by themselves. Once you do that, you will clearly see which to do first in a more complex combination. Also expect some errors as part of the learning process. After that, it is possible to mix and match as well as break some rules. Overall, I have found the most profitability when a logical process is followed. When you are teaching yourself, you must use practice pieces, just as you would in a formal learning environment and master individual parts of a whole project. With on-the-job training, the lost time and lost profits can far outweight the practice time and materials.

[Mike Jackson]

Another problem with a "broad-stroke" question is the fact there are sometimes two, three, or even a half dozen ways of doing the very same step in a project. For example, on an acid resist, you could hand paint the resist, screen print the resist, or use a mask with either a hand cut or computer cut mask. You can even screen print a design onto a mask material, then hand cut areas you want to etch. Some of those might include a layer of asphaltum, maybe not with some brands of rubber or masking materials. There are benefits and caveats with about any of them, so you almost need to have practiced with all of them to understand how using any one of them on a current project would produce the best and most efficient results.

So, as we always say, MAKE SMALL TEST PIECES first!

Mike Jackson

[Kelly Thorson]

Hey Cat
As a general rule do the silverng first. There are a couple of reasons for that. First, you need to have the glass super clean in order to do the silvering, that's easier to achieve on pure glass. Secondly your painted areas can be damaged in the silvering process, the cleaning process can abrade the edges of the paint and some of the silvering chemicals (especially when using copering solutions) can cause lifting of the paint .
Hope this simplifies things.
Ready for some fun? See you soon!

[Larry White]

Another benefit from tackling and mastering the various techniques on an individual basis, is the resulting understanding of the various appearances each technique can create. With this understanding, it's easier to evaluate a more complex design and determine which technique would be most suitable to the various elements of the design. A balance between the various techniques of glass surface alterations, gilding, painting, etc., needs to be established to create a uniform, harmonious and balanced finished design.

Knowing that water gild over glue chipping produces one of the brightest effects, it may be best for the main copy of a design. Same with mica stipple etching. Surface gild over varnish also produces a bright effect, which will reflect light from most any angle. Mirror gild can either reflect very bright, or quite dark. When there is a bright reflection, it pretty much overwhelms the non-gilded areas. I typically consider a mirror gild is going to appear dark. It all depends on the final lighting of the piece. That's also what makes photographing this art so tricky. The old masters new the best way for storefront lettering to be seen was burnished brightlines with matte centers. The matte centers would reflect light from any angle, while the burnished (mirrored) outline would "flash" at the observer.

Studying the works of the masters of this craft and being able to identify the techniques employed, then understanding why the various techniques were selected, will aid in developing a better understanding of how to combine techniques, colors, and metals on your own projects.

[Mike Jackson]

Kelly,
Again, everything "depends".

You said:

As a general rule do the silverng first.

But...if you are going to do any acid etching or glue chipping, you need to do THAT first!

Mike Jackson

[Sarah King]

I have been doing a lot of experiments with silvering and gilding on top of a vinyl mask and it really works great. I have been meaning to post photos of this for some time now but still haven't figured out how.

Do the surface techniques - chipping and etching - first then silver or Angel Gild right over the mask. Lines thinner than 1/8 inch sometimes don't work but anything bigger than that works great. You can get really clean sharp lines very easily. When the gold or silver is down and backed with paint, remove the mask and proceed.

Larry's photos on his Endevour piece show that you can do an entire sign with just one mask. Very inspirational.

[Kelly Thorson]

Thanks for pointing that out Mike, I can see how my answer could be misleading if someone didn't take the time to read the original question.

Hi Sarah
Just wondering if you have found a mask that will withstand the copper solutions? I tried without success, but perhaps it depends on the brand of vinyl?

[DAVE SMITH]

Sarah. It looks nice.
Over here the silverers have always used this process for masking.I find it works best by leaving the vinyl on for a few days and then once silvered and painted completely strip the mask. A key factor in succesful sharp edges is to have the stannous chloride mix at 0.8 grams to 1000ml of distilled water this makes for a nice edge without worrying about tears happening into the bright lines. Also by strengthening the caustic no 2 bottle (caustic soda) I think strengthens the silver. At one time I had these amounts way down to 0.4 stannous chloride(tin solution) which is fine for general silvering with no masks on the glass.
Dave

[Sarah King]

Dave,

I'll have to try it. I don't know why using more caustic would make a difference but getting the tin right to the edge is important. 22 grams of stannous chloride per liter is a very high concentration of tin - you must be rinsing the glass with a lot of water and going through a lot of chemicals.

Recently I had to mirror some bevels with a pencil edge on them. I pretty sure the beveler used oil to lubricate his wheel because the edges refuse to "wet". Finally I tried your trick of rubbing the tin on with some cotton balls and a little wetting agent and then everything worked beautifully. I guess it all depends on what the probelm is.

Do you leave the mask on for days to get it to stick better? Doesn't the vinyl start to shrink once it's cut? I wonder what the old timers used before they had vinyl.

Catharine,

The calandered vinyl paint mask does lift off with copper - very frustrating. I haven't tried the 4 mil sandbalsting mask yet - I'll give it a go and let you know what happens. Maybe it's adhesive is stronger. I would love to solve this little problem.

[Sarah King]

Yeah, well, if I paid attention it might help. Sorry :oops: Kelly!!

[Danny Baronian]

Vinyl: calendared, cast or sandblast mask, it's all in the chemistry.

The weakest link is the bond, the adhesive. Copper solution attacks the adhesive faster and more throughly than any of the gilding solutions.

The next best thing is to screen print with asphaltum for copper. Not as handy or quick as a mask, but still a viable option.

But how much copper is being used compared to other solutions? Sometimes you have to work within limitations of a product.

Danny

[DAVE SMITH]

Sorry My mistake 8grms stannous but still well rinsed. As for the vinyl any type will do up to a 5 year range, anything over this will probably be to thin and may cause left over glue on the glass when peeling it off. I like the 3 yr stuff as it stays in one piece when your pulling it up (depending on the temprature). I have occasionaly placed the vinyl down and silvered straight away ,it still works but you stand the chance of the cleaning bringing up the edges, also it depends on what detail is needed. leaving it on over night and that goes for any vinyl makes the contact to the glass nice and strong. The old timers probably painted and then silvered still works great today with the correct paint (sericols) chemical resistant black strong as ever for silvering works very nice.
Dave