Copyright laws on antique logos?

[Bobbie Rochow]

I have a possible opportunity to display some of my work in a new restaurant nearby, & I am wondering, all the talk about copyright laws & such, is it ok to copy an very old logo onto glass & sell it? This is what you all do with the antique looking ones, right?

[Mike Jackson]

Bobbie,
Are you talking about Ford, Coca-Cola, Buick, Pontiac, Wells Fargo, and those kinds of old logos? I'd be very cautious about use any of the old logos from existing corporations. And, are you talking about simply copying an existing logo? A lot of what you are seeing are old layouts with new copy.

Lastly, just as a word of caution, people often despense "legal" information without being lawyers. For example, I was out taking photos of a the Tetons at one of the scenic spots last fall. One guy backed up and snapped a few photos of all the photographers lined up taking the same photo. I jokingly asked if he had a pile of model releases. Everybody laughed, then the guy next to me said if there were more than 10 people in the scene, you didn't need a model release. I thought about what he had said, since it didn't sound right, and said I need to see that in writing. He said he heard it at a seminar. After we finished and went back to the trucks, I bumped into another professional photographer and he said that guy was wrong...that you need one for everyone no matter how many if it is used commercially. He told me he goes to Native American pow-wows and gets releases for everyone he uses. He told me the tribe has lawyers that look for instances where someone is photographed and used without a release, then sues. On the same lines, one of the sites I read says it is the photographers responsibility to PROVE they have a release for everyone because at any time, any other person can claim they are a person in a photo and want compensation or damages.

I write all that just to make the point that no matter what anyone here might tell you, it will be your butt on the line if someone were to dispute something you did or do. You could have a pile of legal papers and bills and the person you believed is sitting back at home undamaged. There are quite a few sites regarding copyright laws and articles written by lawyers on the topic. You'd be a lot safer getting that kind of information there!

Good luck!
Mike Jackson

[Kent Smith]

I agree with Mike. We went through quite an experience getting permission to use a railroad herald for a long since defunct road. The issue was that Union Pacific now owns not only the right of way but the rights to all railroads, their images and their heralds that ever used the trackage. This was all just to make a museum display which was favorable to the original company and UP as well. It took 6 months of negotiation to prove we were using it for charitable and historical purposes and that the reproductions would be accurate. We have also run into issues with antique slot machine restorations for companies which are still in business or owned by a current company, especially when we are making a replica to replace a broken glass front as opposed to repair of an antique. Copyright law is very complex and infringements not only become civil matters, some cases can be Federal violations. Consulting an attorney is wise and money well spent, especially one who is an expert in copyright law.

[Bobbie Rochow]

Wow, thank you both. I understand why you both explained it all so thoroughly.

You know what, it wouldn't be a bad idea to just make up some ficticious companies & logos that look old, right?

Oh, I do have one more question...what if I went & got some old photos of the old fashioned women & men, & traced over them & made a mask to transfer them to my glass, & then reverse painted them? Could I be in trouble for using an image like that, when all I have done is kind of stylized an old photo? I do NOT mean to use any logo or anything else on it that is copied, just the image of the person.

Thanks!

[Mike Jackson]

Bobbie,
Again, this is a question for a lawyer, not a bunch of sign guys that could steer you wrong. Most of this has an "it depends" answer and sometimes a lot of gray areas. That's the part that makes lawyers rich. Tracing and painting a copyrighted image can get you in trouble. Some images are in public domain. Some images are made available as copyright free, but then you have to read the fine print because there are sometimes restrictions on those images if used for any kind of commercial purposes.

We used a few historical images on our glass pieces, but we went through the local historical society to get to the University of Wyoming who handled the rights to the photos. I think we paid something like $50 for the rights for a project. Many people will give you an okay to an image if you ask up front and tell them what you are doing with them...but you just can't assume one will ever find out if you use one.

Some historical names are in the public domain, such as Davey Crockett, Custer, and so forth. But, The Lone Ranger was a syndicated ficticious name, and is still under the control of the estate. Movie stars have estates that watch for the use of their past relative.

Hope this helps.
Mike Jackson

[Raymond Chapman]

I know this has nothing to do with signs and that none of us are lawyers (or even play one on TV), but I've often wondered about sporting events on TV where they show folks in the grandstands or news events where they show the crowds. I've used photos of Mike Jackson's face in international publications before but I never had him sign a release form. Does that mean that Mike can come and take away my business? (Actually, it would be OK if he also assumed all the debt.)

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Raymond,
When photos are taken for "Publication", people in the photos don't need model releases. You can take photos at an event and share them personally, but the issue arises when the images are used for any kind of commercial purpose. Besides the model releases, photographers have to also worry about logos in the photos. For example, one photographer said he shot a landscape of the city of Houston, which included the Astrodome. The NFL sent lawyers after him because it included the NFL logo on the side of the Astrodome.

I did an article about the nice 3-D signs inside our local Albertsons food store for SignCraft. I had to get permission from the corporate offices, even though the images would be used in a publication. They were inside a building and on private property. So again, even though I met the criteria for one leg of the formula, I had to take the extra step to meet another set of rules.

Sometimes people sign model releases at the same time they are signing off on liability and injury releases. for example, you might take a horseback trip at one of the Dude ranches here in Jackson Hole and have to sign the "release forms". In the middle of the form, there might be a clause stating there might be photos taken and those photos might be used for advertising and commercial purposes. You might even see some of that written on the back of event tickets.

After reading up on the subject, I am very careful about what and who I photograph that I send in to the stock photo place. Normally, they watch for problems and ask for model releases and property releases before they post the photos.

Best regards,
Mike Jackson

ps....the forecast is for -22° tonight. High to day is 10°.

[Doug Bernhardt]

Raymond....i know er well, rather I knew a guy who's friend had a room-mate that played a TV lawyer and I'd be careful about using Mike's face in any further international publications. Mike...I know a good litigation lawyer who could get major buck's out of the Ray Chapman retirement fund!! Okay...on a serious note...while recently working on a sign for Guinness I discovered that some of their old media and "antique advertising" work is actually still under licence to other companies! It goes without saying that Guinness is part of a much larger corporation and to gain access to their materials required alot forms and tests....much of which just simply overwhelmed the "artist" in me!! Having said that I have from time to time simply gotten a nod from other "very large" corporations/brewing enterprises to using their old media with never a consequence and more appreciation...and we still do business. So....I'd look for permission first. The past few years more and more I see brand "sensitivity" and wordmarks/logo's fall deeply into this.

[Raymond Chapman]

Retirement fund?

[Doug Bernhardt]

LOL Yea sure....the same one I have. Sort of like, I'll start it right after I get paid by...................

[Raymond Chapman]

Doug....have you noticed that Mike Jackson is a lot younger than most of us but sold his business way back there when he was just out of his teens and is now living the good life of semi-retirement? He does that fishing thing and takes pictures by the thousands, plus he has this good looking wife that does all the work. Could it be that you and I have have done something wrong?

[Doug Bernhardt]

Ray....did I hear "could it be?" I think it's more likely "when did we?". You know it's kinda funny this comes up. Right now I have a receivables that would scare the heck out of anybody and RSP season is here. That's "retirement Savings Plan" when you are supposed to take your after tax dollars and stick them into a registered account to have when you get old like you....and then pay tax on them. I think this year I'll have to take a loan. I'll make sure it's life insured so when I choke on the receivables my wife can afford to take a good looking young guy like Mike on a nice vacation!!

[Raymond Chapman]

Today, I attended an all day conference on financial planning (Crown Financial Ministries). I think they want to use me for the poster child representing someone who did everything wrong.

At least Jeanne will have a nice sum to live on once I'm gone - I'm worth a lot more dead than alive.