Gemini cut out letters

[Roderick Treece]

I am doing a project right now with 8 double sided blade signs.All the lettering is cut 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2" acrylic from Gemini and has double sided tape on the back for mounting.The tape comes all the way out to the edge and has gaps between the tape strips.You can see the gaps from the sides of the letters.
Does anyone have any experience with this? Am I being too picky here?I have never noticed this with other peoples jobs.I am sure from far away you might not see it but you can from a few feet away.

Roderick

[Robare M. Novou]

We do Gemini Letter Projects at the shop a few times a month, all have been mounted on walls, no blade signs. So I haven't heard of a problem with the mounting appearance.

You should call Gemini and get there take on it. They might tell you to use studs.

Bill Masters says to Smalt it, that should hide the gaps.

RMN

[Jerry Berg]

I myself would not trust d/s tape only for installing any dimensional letters. I usually use vhb, the very thin stuff and apply just 2 or 3 small peices where it won't be visible. The d/s tape is for holding the letters in place untill and adhesive dries. I've allways used industrial strenght liquid nails and push the letter as flush to the surface as possible. No gaps. Ever try getting liquid nails off of plex? Otherwise I stud mount when applicable onto rock, brick, stucco etc.

Just my 2 cents, allways worked for me.

[Roderick Treece]

In the past all the letters I gotten from Gemini have been pin mounted.These are to small to mount like that.At the suggestion of a few people they said to use VHB which is what Gemini uses.On the really small letters the VHB covers the whole letter but on the larger ones they have left gaps between the tape which shows on the sides.I think it's kind of unsightly.For all the new orders I have asked to have know gaps.
I will have to trim the tape back a little so it does show.

The double sided blades have a 3/4" background w/ a 1/4" frosted plex face floating 1/2" away.You can see behind the floating face so that's another reason I wouldn't be able to pin mount the letters.

Roderick

[Danny Baronian]

Hi Rod,

as far as seeing the tape at the edges, you've answered your own question, if it bothers you don't let it out the door until your happy with it.

Use an knife, trim the tape back 1/8" from the edge and it should be fine, and not seen when installed. You didn't say how tall the letters are, but I've mounted 1/8" thick letters 1 1/2" tall letters this way, and without putting your nose to the wall, the tape is not seen. When they're very small I will sometimes use 5 minute gel epoxy or crazy glue.

I would say Gemini was sloppy in applying the tape, and should have trimmed that themselves. While I've never ordered from them, I've heard their product is good, and the tape application you have doesn't match that description.

As far as VHB (very high bond) by 3M, I've used it for years and have never had a failure. As an example of the strength of the tape, truck manufactures use VHB to attach flat body panels to delivery trucks, the ones with the large box containers behind the cab with the roll up doors. If it holds those panels to the truck with all the vibration and speed on the freeway it'll certainly hold up sign parts.

If the letters are over 3-5" high, and you want additional holding power nothing beats a good grade silicon. I tried Liquid nails once.... and would not recommend it for anything past it's intended use - home construction applications.

Danny

Edited to Add:

FYI: Liquid Nails

Years ago I called the manufacture of Liquid Nails and spoke to the lab, wanting to know the best all around 'universal' adhesive to use. Looking at their web site, the info I received hasn't changed much.

Of the approximately 30 types of products they sell, I chose a few that would closest fit the needs of a sign shop. Of those some were listed as a universal adhesive. Here is a list from their site that specify: Not Recommended For:

bonding wood flooring, tubs, sinks, marble, granite, polystyrene panels, aquariums, plastics, ceiling applications and metal roofing applications.

affixing or repairing two non-porous surfaces together such as glass to glass or metal to metal. Also not for use in high-moisture conditions.

flooring applications, ceramics, mirrors, granite, marble, plastic, vinyl or ceiling tile.

exterior use or uses other than mirror installations and applying to wallpapered surfaces, foamboard or treated wood.
outdoor use or for application of mirrors, marble, ceiling tile, wood flooring, underwater use, or most tub surrounds (with the exception of foamback tub surrounds). Not recommended for bonding foamback tub surrounds directly to ceramic tile.

[Robare M. Novou]

Can you post some pictures of those letters and the signs, so that we can what it all looks like, the good and the bad.

Thanks,

RMN

[erik winkler]

As you may probably know i live and work in Nederland (Europe).
I read about Gemini in the American sign magazines. Looked at their site and realised that you guys acroos the big ocean use different mounting techniques than we use over here.
We do not use stut-mounting a lot, but do the 'distantholders' way.
You see them on the bottom of this site: http://www.signnovation.nl/index.php/id_structuur/10410.

Do you use this stuff often, when mounting letters?

[Jerry Berg]

Roderick,
I did not realize the letters where that small and for small letters I would deffinately trust vhb, ecpecially with smooth surfaces. VHB is very good stuff on smooth surfaces, they even use it to put jet air planes together. I used to do very many gemini letters installs of 12" or larger letters, mostly metal with studs. Thats why I am used to using an adhesive, for liability sake. I have to be sure someone doesn't get hurt by a falling metal letter.

Danny, way back when liquid nails came in one formula. Now days there are many. The old formula was a nightmare to remove, it just would'nt come off. I've had to remove many signs through the years and on most of the silicone installs the silicone just fell off in long strips, some were near to impossible to remove though. I did quite a search to find a good silicone and found one that was very good although hard to find and very expensive. I was very disappointed when liquid nails changed thier recipe and after trying all of thier different formulas found one that was very close to the old recipe and works very well for me.

The liquid nails I now use is the heavy duty construction adhesive. It's water proof and weather proof and bonds to all types of wood, brick, rock, metal studs and outdoor foam board. It is recommended for outdoor or indoor use. I'm reading this off of the tube I'm holding. One reason I use this type of liquid nails is because I have a hot wire machine I made for cutting high density foam letters and the liquid nails bonds to the foam perfectly, and to brick or concrete walls. Most silicones don't bond to the foam and I neaded something that would bond to both surfaces. That's why I use the heavy duty consruction adhesive liquid nails, and why I had to try all of thier different formulas to find if there was one still any good to use. All of thier other formulas I would'nt touch with a ten foot pole and are pretty much useless in my opinion.

You got me a little bit scared now Danny. I installed some 36" flat cut letters about 6 weeks ago on a concrete wall using the heavy duty liquid nails. I'm going to go check it out this morning and see how well it's adhered. It's good to have different opinions like this. I need to make sure my methods are going to work the best for me and my clients. I'm glad this came up.

[Danny Baronian]

Eric,

the parts you refer to look similar to what we use here in the states. The bottom parts in the photo look to be threaded standoffs. What I don't know is how they're attached - to the wall or to the back of the letters - unless there the same part listed under g. That photo depicts a threaded insert, and a stud mounted in it.

In that case you need letters at least 1/4" thick. A hole is drilled that will fit the insert on the back side of a letter and is press fit into the hole that will accept a stud. A pattern is then made of the letters w/studs inserted, wall drilled, filled w/ silicon and letters installed. If I need that type of application, I drill and tap the letters myself.

Jerry, if you have a product that works for you and has been failure proof over the years then stick with it (no pun intended). I could have been more concise in my explanation regarding liquid nails. From the Not Recommended list above, those were from the mfg's site and included heavy duty construction adhesives.

Point is: there are too many Not Recommended vs Recommend. I didn't check any further, but remember talking to a liquid nails tech that said the adhesive will break down under UV. It wasn't a concern for them since most construction applications would be too dense for UV to penetrate.

A good grade silicon on the other hand will bond almost anything to anything anywhere. When installing letters my first choice is always VHB along with silicon. There's only been one failure, to a wall that had been wall papered. The new wall paper had a anti graffiti coating that prevented anything sticking to it.

As far as an adhesive for foam, there is a polyurethane glue that comes in a caulking tube. The material is similar to Gorilla glue, but is non expanding, is good indoors and out and is waterproof and UV resistant. Don't know the name off hand, if you want the name, let me know.

As for the 36" letters you've installed, I'd make sure they are well adhered. It only takes a little wind to get under the edge to work those off and sail away. A call to liquid nails and a talk with someone in the lab wouldn't hurt either.

Danny

[erik winkler]

We do not use the 'g' a lot, but do these things:

We glue the transparant 'males' to the back of the letters with cyano-acrylate glue.
And screw the 'females' on the wall.
Just press the 'males' on the backside of the letters into the 'females' and ready....

Erik

[Roderick Treece]

If you look on the Gemini site they do have a stand off system that go's over the stud mount to hold the letter off the wall.

Eric,I can't beleave you just said "And screw the 'females' on the wall" .Even Deadmen don't talk that bad,well maybe they do.

Any way I plan to trim the tape back just a bit.

Roderick

[erik winkler]

Eric,I can't beleave you just said "And screw the 'females' on the wall" .Even Deadmen don't talk that bad,well maybe they do.
Roderick

Roderick,
Maybe that is why i love my job

[Roderick Treece]

With a very sharp X-acto knife it's pretty fast to just trim the tape at a slight angle to the backside of the letter.I found it very hard to trim it in an 1/8" as the VHB was truly doing it's job sticking to the back off the letter.

Roderick

[Danny Baronian]

Rod, next time order the letters without the vhb applied and apply it yourself. The tape doesn't fully cure for a day or two. By the time you get the letters they're fully cured, and hard to cut and remove. Applying the tape followed by trimming allows easy removal of unwanted tape.

Or specify exactly where you want the tape applied.

[Roderick Treece]

I thought about applying in myself but it does save alot of time having the tape already on there.Once I figuired out to just trim it at a slight angle it go's very quickly.
They cover the whole sheet before for they lazer cut the letters.For really smaller letters the whole back is already covered so their a done deal.I did spec the rest of my orders with no gaps between the tape strips so maybe that will help.